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Thread: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

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  1. #1
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Idealism is out. Realism is out. Welcome to supreme realism.

    The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    There is much moaning in Washington about the return of the 'realists.' But what we need is a Kissingerian effort to extricate America.

    Dec. 4, 2006 issue - If you want to understand the futility of America's current situation in Iraq, last week provided a vivid microcosm. On Thursday, just hours before a series of car bombs killed more than 200 people in the Shia stronghold of Sadr City, Sunni militants attacked the Ministry of Health, which is run by one of Moqtada al-Sadr's followers. Within a couple of hours, American units arrived at the scene and chased off the attackers. The next day, Sadr's men began reprisals against Sunnis, firing RPGs at several mosques. When U.S. forces tried to stop the carnage and restore order, goons from Sadr's Mahdi Army began firing on American helicopters. In other words, one day the U.S. Army was defending Sadr's militia and, the next day, was attacked by it. We're in the middle of a civil war and are being shot at by both sides.

    There can be no more doubt that Iraq is in a civil war, in which leaders of both its main communities, Sunnis and Shiites, are fomenting violence. The assault on Sadr's Ministry of Health was likely retaliation for a recent mass kidnapping at the Ministry of Education, which still retains some Sunnis. The Ministry of the Interior houses the deadliest killers from the Badr Brigades, the other large Shiite militia. Badr's Bayan Jabr built the death squads when he ran the ministry; he's now Iraq's Finance minister, in charge of its resources. This is the Iraqi government we are protecting, funding and attempting to strengthen. To speak, as the White House deputy press secretary did last week, of "terrorists ... targeting innocents in a brazen effort to topple a democratically elected government" totally misses the reality of Iraq today. Who are the terrorists and who are the innocents? Among the most pro-American voices to emerge from the new Iraq have been two young Baghdadis, Omar and Mohammed Fadhlil, whose three-year-old blog, Iraq the Model, has promoted a relentlessly upbeat and hopeful message. Last week they threw in the towel. "I believe that America would like to see Iraq emerge as a model for the region," Mohammed wrote. "But that cannot be done without having a cooperative Iraqi partner on the ground who shares similar views for Iraq and the Middle East. And that's the point—that partner does not exist, at least not in the government."

    The American Army has more than enough troops to confront the Mahdi Army. The problem is political, not military. U.S. forces have been repeatedly blocked from going after Mahdi leaders. This month they were forced by the Iraqi government to abandon raids into Sadr City in search of a kidnapped American soldier. They were not even allowed to stop traffic in the neighborhood. Will more troops change that?

    To the contrary, both sides now see American troops as the problem. The Shiite ruling coalition and the Sunni insurgency both believe that if only the United States were to get out of the way, they could defeat their enemies outright. That's why, in the most recent poll of Iraqis, taken in September, 91 percent of Sunnis and 74 percent of Shiites said they wanted American forces to leave within a year.

    While these are not conditions that suggest a political deal is likely, there is nothing to be lost in trying. When President Bush meets with Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki in Jordan this week, he should make clear that Iraq's leaders need to come to an agreement that meets both sides' key demands on such issues as autonomy, oil revenues and amnesty. But he needs to deliver an ultimatum: either the government begins implementing such a deal by January or American troops will begin a drawdown, leaving the core tasks of security to Iraqi forces.

    There is much moaning in Washington about the return of the "realists," like James Baker, who are allegedly pushing to surrender America's ideals as the price of bringing stability to the situation in Iraq. In fact, even stability in Iraq is unattainable. What we will soon need is a supreme act of realism, dictated not by the ascendancy of a school of thought in Washington but by events on the ground in Iraq. We will need a Kissingerian effort to extricate the United States from the catastrophe that Iraq has become.

    Iraq is not Vietnam. But America's predicament in Iraq is becoming increasingly similar to the one it faced in Southeast Asia more than 30 years ago. Henry Kissinger's negotiations to end the Vietnam War have been criticized from both the left and right. One side thought he moved too slowly to get us out, the other that he gave up too much. But looking at our circumstances in Iraq should give us some appreciation for the difficulty of his task. With a losing hand and deteriorating conditions on the ground, Kissinger maneuvered to extricate the United States from a situation in which it could not achieve its objectives, while at the same time limiting the damage, shoring up regional allies and maintaining some measure of American credibility. A version of such a strategy is the only one that has any chance of success in Iraq today.
    Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15897617/site/newsweek/

    I predict withdrawal by '08-'09.
    Last edited by Siblesz; November 26, 2006 at 12:31 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Yes, it will happen after the next presidential election, cause you won't be able to win on a pro-war continuation platform, Republican or Democrat. And a sad chapter of American history will closed, on how one of the worse presidents in American history completely bungled our entrance into the 21st Century.

    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    "The politics of the Karl Rove era were designed to distract and divide the very people who would ordinarily be rebelling against the deterioration of their way of life. Working Americans have been repeatedly seduced at the polls by emotional issues such as the predictable mantra of “God, guns, gays, abortion, and the flag” while their way if life shifted ineluctably beneath their feet." - Senator Jim Webb

  3. #3
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForgottenImmortal View Post
    Yes, it will happen after the next presidential election, cause you won't be able to win on a pro-war continuation platform, Republican or Democrat. And a sad chapter of American history will closed, on how one of the worse presidents in American history completely bungled our entrance into the 21st Century.
    I think the sad chapter belongs to Iraq. At the end of the day it was a colossal mistake to go in. It was predicated on distortions and outright lies. The cost to both America and Britain has been, in truth, minimal. The cost to Iraqis has been devastating.

    Had more thought gone into the aftermath rather than the relatively easy initial win then perhaps no one would be in this mess.

    As to it being like 'Nam, well the cost to America's prestige is great. Britain has played a similar role to Australia, from what I can gather) and, I suspect, our cost is higher as we have, essentially, lost a lot of influence in the world at large for some transitory and somewhat nebulous influence over America.

    All we have done is opened up a new front in this 'War on Terrorism' and made an unstable regoin somewhat more unstable - quite a marvellous feat, really. Kudos to both governments for that achievement.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Out of curiosity, how in the hell could you have conducted this war better?
    Even in retrospect, the only viable alternative I see would be to install another Saddam esque dictator (maybe a Shia this time around) and leave the country as intact as possible.
    Anything that relied on building democracy was bound to fail.
    Anyway, the legacy of this war will most certainly not be a pleasant one.
    All I can see of it is needless death and a redistribution of wealth from the taxpayers to the contractors.





  5. #5
    Hansa's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by RusskiSoldat View Post
    Out of curiosity, how in the hell could you have conducted this war better?
    Even in retrospect, the only viable alternative I see would be to install another Saddam esque dictator (maybe a Shia this time around) and leave the country as intact as possible.
    Anything that relied on building democracy was bound to fail.
    Anyway, the legacy of this war will most certainly not be a pleasant one.
    All I can see of it is needless death and a redistribution of wealth from the taxpayers to the contractors.
    Well, let that be a lesson, don't invade another country on a whim. Not saying it couldn't have been conducted better, it could, but Iraq could never be the cakewalk predicted by Cheney, Bush and Rummy before the war either.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by RusskiSoldat View Post
    Out of curiosity, how in the hell could you have conducted this war better?
    Because this war and the occupation have been so flawlessly executed? Because there wasn't a single avoidable mistake that's been made? Sorry but have you been keeping up to date the last 3 years?

  7. #7
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapax View Post
    Because this war and the occupation have been so flawlessly executed? Because there wasn't a single avoidable mistake that's been made? Sorry but have you been keeping up to date the last 3 years?
    I think he mean the invasion...I think.

    Anyhoo this oh so noble attempt to give the poor Iraqi people a free and democratic nation ( ) was bound to fail. There was no way to win. Ethnic/religious tensions were bound to explode and we had no way to containing it. The only thing we can do now is hope to restore some sense of stability, with or without "democracy"
    Last edited by Last Roman; November 26, 2006 at 04:08 PM.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    I think not. His post refers to the post-invasion handling of iraq, no one ever criticized the execution of those few weeks of actual war. Just what happened afterwards.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Anyone who thinks this resemebles Nam is in need of some therapy. No offense big guy.
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  10. #10
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh View Post
    Anyone who thinks this resemebles Nam is in need of some therapy. No offense big guy.
    Allright, here is the relevant passage:

    With a losing hand and deteriorating conditions on the ground, Kissinger maneuvered to extricate the United States from a situation in which it could not achieve its objectives, while at the same time limiting the damage, shoring up regional allies and maintaining some measure of American credibility.


    Assuming your comment is relevant, these are not valid parallels between the situation in Irak now and in Vietnam then. Is that correct?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Well, the usual response as soon as someone dare makes the vietnam comparison is to point out the difference in casualties, which of course is the only thing that's allowed to be compared.

  12. #12
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh View Post
    Anyone who thinks this resemebles Nam is in need of some therapy. No offense big guy.
    Read the article, bud:

    "Iraq is not Vietnam. But America's predicament in Iraq is becoming increasingly similar to the one it faced in Southeast Asia more than 30 years ago."

    He's not making claims that Iraq and Vietnam are similar in culture/geographic location/yearly sell of AK-47s/what have you. However, he does say that the PREDICAMENT in which the U.S. finds itself is very similar to that which they faced in Vietnam. Meaning, it was a lose-lose situation.
    Last edited by Siblesz; November 26, 2006 at 07:35 PM.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    ' he does say that the PREDICAMENT in which the U.S. finds itself is very similar to that which they faced in Vietnam. Meaning, it was a lose-lose situation.'

    And we need him to tell us that? I said that before we even invaded. Thats why I opposed the invasion.
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  14. #14
    Bwaho's Avatar Puppeteer
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    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    "Thats why I opposed the invasion"


    you opposed the invasion? I thought you were one of the fellas who said "we have to disarm iraq"?

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    'you opposed the invasion? '

    Yes. Ive stated so repeatdly on these boards.

    'I thought you were one of the fellas who said "we have to disarm iraq"?'

    I was one who defended our right to invade Iraq. That doesnt mean I supported it. I knew we didnt have the balls to do what needs to be done. First thing they teach you in the Marines is never halfstep.
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  16. #16
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh View Post
    ' he does say that the PREDICAMENT in which the U.S. finds itself is very similar to that which they faced in Vietnam. Meaning, it was a lose-lose situation.'

    And we need him to tell us that? I said that before we even invaded. Thats why I opposed the invasion.
    No, we don't need him to tell us that. If you have a mind, you know it. But some do need this to show how urgent the option of immediate withdrawal is needed today, and how staying there longer than two years would be A.) a death sentence for a couple more thousand U.S. soldiers, B.) would make the threat of aggression from a growing and united Middle East against American and Israeli aggression a realization, which would then reverberate out of control and into civil war/terrorism/radical Islam in many countries, and C.) would bring about the defeat and neutralization of U.S. power for at least a decade in matters of foreign policy.
    Last edited by Siblesz; November 26, 2006 at 08:04 PM.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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  17. #17
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh View Post

    And we need him to tell us that?
    apparently, as there are still many who support this war.
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  18. #18
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    apparently, as there are still many who support this war.
    Grab the percentage who still support the war in Iraq and label them "the foolish and blinded proles that form U.S. population". Of course, I would have to maybe double that number to get proles from each side, to be fair.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

    Proud patron of: The Magnanimous Household of Siblesz
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  19. #19

    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh View Post
    Anyone who thinks this resemebles Nam is in need of some therapy. No offense big guy.
    Those who are clinging to the fact that there are many, many differences between the situation in Iraq and that in Vietnam are kidding themselves. Not because there aren't far more differences than similarities - that's perfectly true - but because of the nature of the similarities.

    As Robert K. Brigham wisely noted in his recent book Is Iraq Another Vietnam? the differences by far outweigh the similarities. However, as he puts it:

    ... the few similarities (also) dwarf all the differences.

    The point is not that Iraq is like Vietnam in every particular, because it isn't. It not even that it's like Vietnam in many respects; it isn't. The point is that the few key ways in which Iraq is like Vietnam are the big, important and unavoidable ones:

    (i) The US can't militarily "win" in any real sense of the word
    (ii) It's provided an abject lesson in the limits of US power and
    (iii) The public has turned against it and won't be changing its mind

    So the differences are many and clear. Vietnam began as a guerrilla insurgency and ended as a conventional war, for example, whereas in Iraq it was the other way around. But it's the similarities which are significant.

    So small wonder it's Kissinger who is now advising the White House on what to do next. At least he has the benefit of experience in politically camouflaging an ignominious retreat from a disastrous overseas adventure. He's been there, done that.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: The Next Step? Think Vietnam.

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