Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

[Dragonchampion]

Jeez, Eldren. Double posting much?

Anyways, my thoughts are defintely that we should have a tier system. I really do think that we could do that well, and I'd love to offer some ideas for higher tier units. For instance, the Zora seem to have a good tier system right now; I say use them as a base.

[Sir Aroun]

Jeez, Eldren. Double posting much?

Anyways, my thoughts are defintely that we should have a tier system. I really do think that we could do that well, and I'd love to offer some ideas for higher tier units. For instance, the Zora seem to have a good tier system right now; I say use them as a base.

Why not a mix? some areas that are tiered and some that are not. how horizontal vs vertical a faction is could even feed into how a faction it feels.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Why not a mix? some areas that are tiered and some that are not. how horizontal vs vertical a faction is could even feed into how a faction it feels.

That's what I'm saying. Have some factions follow the tier system, some follow the system proposed by Neph, and maybe a few kinda do both.

[Nihilem]

I also agree that their should be some kind of scaling in the attributes. It would be really weird if an kokiri with an woodshield has the same strengh as an darknut who is carrying a little castle. Therefore I would suggest that stat orientated attributes are change to "X shield +4" for example meaning that you take the normal roster of the unit and add 4 to the shield value. That way neph has also a little more freedom to design his units as not every soldier who has a shield is meant to be an anti archer unit.

But I would apply this roster + attributes system to every race, as it also makes very obvious to the player what role an unit has. Right now, when I play for example Ordonia I have no idea if I should produce lumberjacks or militia, horseman or goatriders etc. With the new attributes i can directly see what the strenght of an unit is without comparing stats and costs for ever, so I like that really much.

[Nihilem]

Am I just blind or is the really no way to edit your posts in this forum cO .

Nevertheless, I like the idea that even the "start" units like townguards etc have a role and you dont forget them if you have enough money (poor ordonian peasent archers and farmers ...).

But that will be really hard to find such a niche for the "weaker" units with the restricted possibilities of medieval 2 and making sure that the races dont feel like clones.
Unfortunalety that is a little problem with an structured balancing like that - if you are not careful everything will feel like clones.

So probably we should help and try to find if we can give ideas for roles that these T1 units can have .

For Hyrule I think the garrison + "police" attribut is a really good idea. Have the castle guards and infantry as standard fighting units (with better stats) and town guard + recruits with garrison + "police" as town defender with global advantages. The rest of the units then can have an specific role they carry out. Knights as tanks, flail knights as armor killer, iron clad as support etc.

For gohma - can someone make a few experiments with the "burrow" mechanic. I think it would be really cool if the the little spiders can be used bunkers. Like making them really fast und able to "burrow" under other units so that they can pass through the enemy melees and attacking archers and artillery. They wouldnt be able to actual kill them but keeping them busy that they can not attack the "big guys".

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Am I just blind or is the really no way to edit your posts in this forum cO .

You have to have 25 posts and/or have been a member for a week. Something like that. I could never quite remember

[Eldren]

So Neph.
What are your thoughts on what you are considering or planning for the future of HTW?
In what ways will or may it change? For Factions and units a like?

Edit:
Too bad we lost all those posts for this thread.
It was good feed back in my opinion. I hope Neph was reading them before TWC had that brake Down.

Edit2:
Just as a reminder for who ever cared.
I was in favor of Combining the old unit stats with the new unit stats. The way I would like it to be. Is to re-use the old unit stats as a template. And apply all or many of the things that was good or worked well for the new stats.

The ones that come to mind are off the top of my head.
1) Increasing the unit size(number of troops in a unit) For all those units that were lacking and just worthless/U-P.
The units I'm talking about are:
-Some higher tier units
-Some specialized units
-Some/all stealth units (The Ikona Garo ninja for example)
-Some/all fast moving units (mostly infantry types) (The Lanorya shore sentinels for example.)
-Some/all recon units (The Kiroki detachment for example.)
-Some units with special abilities (Like the Phantoms of Term for example)
-Some/all Support units (Like Ordona Hawk men, Gohma Queens, Zora Healers, ...Ikona mummy's??) (of course this could also be intentional for the Support Class. But we could still remedy it a little.)
2) Use the new Ranges for all the unit's ranged attacks. So Foot Archers/Crossbowmen have the most range. Fallowed by Cavalry ranged units as the next with the most range. And after them all Mage units have the most range. Artillery Units attack range varies per unit. And I don't know about units that throw things. Like Spear and bombs.
On that topic of throw things like Spears and bombs. I say that all Spear throwers(They are mostly infantry by the way) should be able to handle a melee fight. Because they have so many penalties/drew backs as is right now and in Previous versions of HTW.
-1- Less Range
-2- less fire rate
-3- less accurate (miss a lot)
-4- they don't attack in a volley.
So in conclusion and by my personal experience. I can say for sure that no Spear throwing unit can beat any other type of ranged units, Except artillery. This is the case now and with the old stats.



About Zora Healers, Can we have them increase the amount of Solders that recovered after the battle? You know the battle stat that says Solders recovered. And it takes way that number stated there from the amount of Dead troops and adds it to the number of troops remaining/alive that you keep.

I think it is do-able to have Zora Healers as true Healers. By making all Zora Healer units low level Generals. With a special Trait/accessory/retinue/follower, Etc, etc, that makes them increase the amount of troops recovered after a battle that they are in.

Hey!
We can do that and similar stuff with other/all Units to make same really neat things. Like Faster/slower traveling troops. Or Greater/lesser Vision for that troop type on the world map. Etc Etc. We could even Give Traits To races that affect them other than Just saying (This is a Kiroki, or This is a Skeika)
What is every ones thoughts on this?


O.. I just realised We can change the difficulty level by making all Units in game Low level generals and giving them triats that Change their unit stats. Like ether buff or Nerf them. Or Change their Stats completely.

Now on a slite rabbit trail. I hear some people like the new stats because they make the game harder and more challenging.
Which is odd because the idea was to make the game more balanced and less Broken.
But there are other people Who don't like the new unit stats. Because it takes away From the game's immersion, Lore and Doesn't feel like a Zelda game. (I think I said the right Points I made before. )

So Keeping all this in mind.
If we want, With all units being generals. We can have the Old unit stats as a Objective type. And the New testing Unit stats Be a different Objective type. But the only difference is the traits given to the Generals of each unit.

Again. I think this has real Promise and could help us out a lot as well and could improve HTW in many areas.

[Eldren]

LOL.
Sorry for the long post.
But I kept thinking of new things to say. It's a problem of Ideamen and Artists worldwide.

[JoonasTo]

Now on a slite rabbit trail. I hear some people like the new stats because they make the game harder and more challenging.
Which is odd because the idea was to make the game more balanced and less Broken.

No it makes perfect sense since before the game was so broken because you had so much overpowered stuff you could stomp everything. Now you have less of that.
Sadly mages still ridiculously op.

We could nerf the mages by limiting their numbers in a unit. As long as their projectiles are insta kill the only way to really nerf them is limit the number of projectiles. This also makes them super easy to kill in melee/ with archers so they would have to be heavily protected.
The problem is with the archers now having more range, all you'd need would be one group of archers to wipe them out before they reach firing range. They're already pretty weak to archers as is so I'm not sure if this is a wanted byproduct. The ai doesn't target them though so shouldn't be too bad.

[JoonasTo]

I'm probably going to make another balance of mine based on pretty much all the work done before and this new one by Neph.

Ordonian Militia would be the basic candidate for regular unit:

basic sword +1,5 att
basic training +1,5 att
Total Attack 3,0

basic shield +3 shield
basic armour +3 armour
basic training + 3 def
Total Defense 9

Unit mass 1.2

3-9 with free upkeep in town due to militia status, deals well with regular archers due to shield
1 turn to recruit, normal 300 recruitment cost, normal 100 upkeep on the field, no upkeep in town


Hyrule Knights for more elite unit:

bastard sword +2,5 att
veteran +3 att
total attack 5,5 ~6

hylian shield +5 shield
full plate +7 armour
veteran +6 defense
Total defense 18

unit mass 1.4

6-18 with high morale due to veterancy, deals well with archers due to shield+plate armour
3 turns to recruit, 900 recruitment cost, 300 upkeep always


If you are wondering, I was going with these training/experience values, some examples also:
,5/1 skill on peasant; ordonian farmers, gohma larva
1/2 with poor training; hylian town guard, lanayru conscripts
1,5/3 with basic training; ordona militia, hylian recruits, darknut initiates
2/4 with well trained/seen combat; hylian infantry, darknut adepts
2,5/5 with excellent training/experienced; hylian castle guard, darknut mighties
3/6 with veteran; hylian knights, darknut masters
3,5/7 with elite; ironclad elites, darknut legendaries
4/8 with hero; darknut deities
4,5/9 for something epic
5/10 for something even more awesome


PS. I have to make tests with the unit mass. 1.0 is unarmoured human at 65kg. Human with sword +1,5kg, shield +3kg, armour +10kg is 1,22~1,2. Human with bastard sword 2,5kg, hylian shield +3 kg, plate armour +20kg ~1,4.

PPS. Ordona militia description goes "...and rushed into a firefight."
Maybe change that xD

[warl0rd13]

I dunno, defense feels too high while attack is too low, make some fights take forever, and if archers don't have AP then they struggle to kill anything, even flying units that have no shield stat can more or less tank arrow fire with acceptable losses.

[JoonasTo]

It's in keeping with Neph's 1-3 att-def ratio more or less. Yes it takes makes for longer fights but I'm not too concerned, it's not like it's TATW levels yet, and it also means you have a little more time to maneuver your forces into flanking position(or get flanked!)

Regular archers won't put a dent into hylian knights true, but that's also kinda the point of the hylian shield and plate armour(that is way overkill vs bows since it was developed vs crossbows/firearms anyway). If flanked by AP archers(like coralmolds) they should incur quite a few casualties. The same goes for regular archers vs militia, if you can flank them you get rid of the shield bonus and only the armour counts, this makes regular archers kill them with ease. Then again, an unarmoured marauder would look something like this:

Scimitar +2,5 att
No offhand weapon/two handed bonus 1,0 att
Well trained +2,0 att
Total attack ~6

No shield/offhand weapon + 0 shield
poor armour +2 armour
well trained +4 defense
total defense 6

Unit mass 1,1

6-6 with combat bonus in desert, fast moving(1,2) and high stamina due to gerudo bonus/youth, excellent for hunting down fleeing enemies or doing flanked attacks
2 turns to recruit, normal 300 recruitment cost, normal 100 upkeep always

They get massacred by all archers from whichever direction due to poor armour and no shield.

PS. I didn't count the scabbard into shield/two-handed bonus due to the animation not using it but if they did that would count as +1 shield value instead of +1 attack for no offhand.


EDIT: After testing I've decided to keep charge at solid 3 for all infantry for now. With that marauder/militia are pretty much in perfect balance in 1v1 combat. If I increase the charge the militia gets slaughtered leaving over 90 marauders alive. That's about a 90 soldier difference to solid 3 charge.

Another thing I noticed that might be of interest is that the high attack/low def marauder does very well for itself in the beginning of the engagement but as the fight drags on they keep losing more and more until it's even or even slightly in favour of the militia at the end. Probably due to the soldiers spreading and mixing so the militia start hitting some of the marauders from the left(0 shield, 2 armour) side instead of just front or right(2 armour, 4 def skill.)

[Eldren]

No it makes perfect sense since before the game was so broken because you had so much overpowered stuff you could stomp everything. Now you have less of that.
Sadly mages still ridiculously op.

We could nerf the mages by limiting their numbers in a unit. As long as their projectiles are insta kill the only way to really nerf them is limit the number of projectiles. This also makes them super easy to kill in melee/ with archers so they would have to be heavily protected.
The problem is with the archers now having more range, all you'd need would be one group of archers to wipe them out before they reach firing range. They're already pretty weak to archers as is so I'm not sure if this is a wanted byproduct. The ai doesn't target them though so shouldn't be too bad.

Hey JoonasTo.
I know we haven't seen eye to eye on what Direction we think HTW should go.
But I just realized some thing.I would be very interested in playing HTW with your effort and insight involved in its Creation/modification.
So if I may ask a favor of you?
Though the favor has a few parts to it.
1) Could you make a Sub mod of the current version of HTW.
2) Give the old stats back too all units.
3) Give all the new units stats close to how the old stats where. Since they where not there in the old version. They don't have old stats.
4) Apply some of the things the new version has, in my opinion, been a Great idea. I'll re-quote the top 2 I liked.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The ones that come to mind are off the top of my head.
1) Increasing the unit size(number of troops in a unit) For all those units that were lacking and just worthless/U-P.
The units I'm talking about are:
-Some higher tier units
-Some specialized units
-Some/all stealth units (The Ikona Garo ninja for example)
-Some/all fast moving units (mostly infantry types) (The Lanorya shore sentinels for example.)
-Some/all recon units (The Kiroki detachment for example.)
-Some units with special abilities (Like the Phantoms of Term for example)
-Some/all Support units (Like Ordona Hawk men, Gohma Queens, Zora Healers, ...Ikona mummy's??) (of course this could also be intentional for the Support Class. But we could still remedy it a little.)
2) Use the new Ranges for all the unit's ranged attacks. So Foot Archers/Crossbowmen have the most range. Fallowed by Cavalry ranged units as the next with the most range. And after them all Mage units have the most range. Artillery Units attack range varies per unit. And I don't know about units that throw things. Like Spear and bombs.

5) From here. I would like you to take it in to your own hands. And do as you like or see fit.
Though I may not like the end product because of that. It may come out actually quite cool and enjoyable.


Now let me just say that there were very few OP units in the old Version. But there were quite a few more UP units in comparison. Though most units where well balanced and use-full for their task. And for me. I really liked the variety of units and how they acted and functioned. Each and every unit was important. And reflected who they where in the Real Zelda games. In the new version of HTW. These 4 things seem to be lost to me. Though that may not be the case for others or in actuality.

Now there are 2 other things I would like to remedy. But they may already be included in what I've all ready ask.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1) I would like to buff Spear Thrower units in general. For these reasons.

On that topic of throw things like Spears and bombs. I say that all Spear throwers(They are mostly infantry by the way) should be able to handle a melee fight. Because they have so many penalties/drew backs as is right now and in Previous versions of HTW.
-1- Less Range
-2- less fire rate
-3- less accurate (miss a lot)
-4- they don't attack in a volley.
So in conclusion and by my personal experience. I can say for sure that no Spear throwing unit can beat any other type of ranged units, Except artillery. This is the case now and with the old stats.

2) Most elite/higher tier units and hybrid units. Need a buff. Because they are not supposed to be even with normal units. Neph put several penalties on these units. To balance them out with the other units. Now just so we are clear. I'm currently talking about the old stats.
I said they needed a buff. But just increasing their troop count will make them not Worthless/UnderPowered. Because most elite/higher tier units and hybrid units. will loss a 1 on 1 fight with a lower tier unit. They already cost more. For their better stats. So why give them a double negative? By lowing their troop numbers.

I guess that's it.I really want to hear from you JoonasTo, About this.

@all.
Feel free to give your input about this as well.

@ JoonasTo.
By the way. How goes your personal balance pass.

I'm probably going to make another balance of mine based on pretty much all the work done before and this new one by Neph.

Ordonian Militia would be the basic candidate for regular unit:

Edit:
Sorry about my spelling. I just spell checked my post.

Edit2:
@ all.
What do people think about JoonasTo's Balance pass he is making?
Or do you guys have no comments/input until you test it out?

[JoonasTo]

I have no clue how to balance some of the creatures since I don't really know what kind of role they were designed for.

Oh and mages, I have no fricking clue what to do with them xD

[Eldren]

I have no clue how to balance some of the creatures since I don't really know what kind of role they were designed for.

Reading their unit Description, Their Building Description which you get them from. And their faction Description. All gives a purity good idea on how their stats should start as. That's all so one of the problems with the new stats. Because all the old stats for units was done this way Or was kept in mind when making the stats. The New stats throws Lore out the window. Which takes a way so much.

Oh and mages, I have no fricking clue what to do with them xD

Mages was never a problem in the old version. (except floodmasters and the like). because you had many ways to deal with them. You had other ranges units both infantry, cavalry and artillery. You also could just charge them with cavalry or other fast units. And remember, Loose formation, spreading out troops and flanking, are your best friends against mages.

The real problem is that the Ai doesn't use tactics most of the time. And if they do. They don't normally do tactics that are good for their faction.
Which is why the game is so easy for some/most people. The New Stats makes the game harder by removing the amount of tactics a Player can do/pull off. Which may explain why I think the new stats make the game bland and boring. All I can do in battles in the new version is suffer far more losses then the old version. And the way the game feels and plays is far to similar to the Base game of M2TW for me.
I only got M2TW For HTW. And I never play M2TW except for a few custom battles in the past.

Edit:
@JoonasTo.
I edited my earlyer post. I was wondering if you saw it.

[VictorAYorke]

I have no clue how to balance some of the creatures since I don't really know what kind of role they were designed for.

Oh and mages, I have no fricking clue what to do with them xD

My thoughts on mages are to have a few rough groups, based on their attack type and ultimate tactical use:
==Direct-Fire (Zora Mages, Wizzrobe Electromancers etc), magic units with little/no arcing to their projectiles and are incapable of overhead attacks., but their shots pass through multiple enemies. Best used to soften up the enemy lines before the main forces meet.
==Massed Damage (Twili Sorceresses, Wizzrobe Pyromancers, Gerudo Wind Witches etc), magic units who can fire directly or indirectly and who are there to rack up as many enemy casualties as possible. Short range to counter their offensive potential. Put these guys on a wall or behind elite heavy inf, and you may have broken the game.
==Light Artillery (half the Fairy roster), long-range high-damage units with a modest AoE effect. Best used to counter enemy artillery, snipe at generals, cause morale damage or to harass a cautious enemy.
==Suppression (Wizzrobe Aquamancers, possibly also Geomancers, I suspect Zora Floodmasters should act as these too), magic units with range and a wide AoE attack, but little damage. They don't really cause casualties, but they can knock an entire army on their backsides. Best used to disrupt charges, limit enemy manoeuvrability and soften up an infantry group for a friendly charge.

These are just my headcanon based on the old unit stats, although I really want to see suppression-based mages make an appearance (just think of the tactics they open up!)

By all means do whatever you will with mages, but I strongly advise you make them into very niche units, using missile attacks that would make no sense on a non-magic unit but that open up a load of tactics for their faction. (also that add flavor, but yeah)

[JoonasTo]

They're just a pain to begin with because their projectiles are insta kill...

[warl0rd13]

Only if they pierce their targets defense, so that's something.

[Eldren]

Only if they pierce their targets defense, so that's something.

[JoonasTo]

This is what Hylians look like after the first pass. The ironclads have issues, they only have the sword as an offhand and they only have a short spear. What is up with that? Why no halberds? Anyway, that makes them pretty bad so I buffed their armour more than I originally wanted to but they still kinda suck. And they will keep on sucking if they don't get a proper weapon.

All unit upkeep is 1/3rd of the unit cost. Mounted unit is simply double the cost of the footed version. Equipment(mainly armour) and training is factored into cost and training time is dependent on training level of the unit+1 more turn for horses.

Recruit

bastard sword 2,5 att
no offhand 1 att
basic training 1,5 att
total 5

chainmail 5 armour
no shield 0 shield
basic training 3 def
total 8

5-8,
1 turn, 400

unit mass 1.2


Mounted recruit

bastard sword 2,5 att
no offhand 1 att
basic training 1,5 att
mounted -1 att
total 4

chainmail 5 armour
no shield 0 shield
basic training 3 def
mounted -1
total 7

mass 2.0

4-7,
2 turn, 800


Town guard

short spear 1,0
twohanded 1,0
poor training 1,0
total 3

chainmail 5 armour
no shield 0 shield
poor training 2 def
total 7

Unit mass 1.1

3-7, light spear, spear bonus 4
1 turn, 300, free in town,


infantry

bastard sword 2,5 att
no offhand 1 att
good training 2,0 att
total 6

chainmail, strenghtened 6 armour
no shield 0 shield
good training 4 def
total 10

6-10, high morale
2 turn, 500

mass 1.2


crossbowmen

missile att
crossbow +ap 1,5 att, slow attack
basic training 1,5 att
total 3

melee att
crossbow ,5
basic training 1,5
missile unit -2
total 0~1

chaimail 5 armour
shield on back 1 armour
total 6

3-6, ap, slow attack,
1 turn, 300

mass 1.0

castle guard

short spear 1,0
excellent training 2,5
total 4

large hylian shield 7 shield
plate 7 armour
excellent training 5
19

4-19, spear, spear bonus 8, high morale
3 turn, 900

mass 1.3

knights

bastard sword 2,5
veteran 3,0
6

hylian shield 5
plate 7
veteran 6
18

6-18, excellent morale
3 turn 900

mass 1.4


flail knights

flail 2,0, ap
veteran 3,0
5

hylian shield 5
plate 7
veteran 6
18

6-18, excellent morale, ap
3 turn 900

mass 1.4


mounted knights

bastard sword 2,5
veteran 3,0
mounted -1
5

hylian shield 5
plate 7
veteran 6
mounted -1
17

5-17, excellent morale
4 turn 1800

mass 4


ironclad elite

short spear 1,0
elite 3,5
5

full plate 10
offhand sword 1 shield
elite 7 def
18

5-18, light_spear, spear bonus 4, excellent morale, command
3 turn, 1000

mass 1.5