Nephy's Balance (Gasp!!!) Thread

[DarkInterloper]

I haven't read every single post on this thread since 4.0 came out, so forgive me, as I don't want to waste anyone's time rehashing old issues, but I think nobody's raised the following points yet (I do so here not as a demand for changes, but simply as observations that are intended to be helpful):

1) Factions are largely balanced in manual combat, but the automated combat option has problems with balance. Specifically:
1a) Darknuts perform terribly. (My inference is that the AI underestimates the strength of multi-hitpoint units.)
1b) Gorons cannot win a battle. (Same reason?)
1c) Ikana is extremely strong.
1d) I think Ordona may have problems.

For humans, one can simply manual-fight battles and this shouldn't matter. But on the larger campaign map, this affects the entire game, because inter-AI combat can become very one-sided; for instance, I've never seen the Gorons expand their empire, even when they have a huge lead by every measurable metric, and Ikana conquers its non-human neighbors very quickly--and they can do it if you leave them so much as a single city. And the once-scary Ordona is now the laughingstock of the South.

2) Maintenance. High mainentance costs are great (armies got too big in versions 3.x, in my opinion) but now the ratio of recruitment cost to upkeep cost is a little too high, so winning a battle is less "you just destroyed xxxx rupees' worth of troops!" and more "thanks for eliminating xxx rupees' worth of mainentance costs for the enemy!". Perhaps 500 cost / 100 maintenance for regular troops? Just a suggestion.
2a) The Fairies no longer have free maintenance, it appears. This is great--they're no longer stupendously powerful (although simply reduced maintenance could be interesting)--but their neighbors Lanayru are now freed up to be world-conquering beasts. Reducing the starting population of Lanayru cities (and of nearby rebel cities) may help.
2b) The maintenance of Zuna Ziggurats (and Sheikah Shadow Cannons) never got adjusted; those things still cost the old 100 rupees/turn, which is now in fact 33% less than that of a normal unit, not 100% more. Leads to some interesting strategies, especially on the former. Doubt it was intentional, though.

3) Do Ikanian cities grow now? That's fine and all, but the civ is now overpowered. This may be more related to point 1c than anything.

4) River Zora start with only 1K rupees, not 10K, which I think is probably a typo in some file somewhere. And this isn't a balance thing, but they crash frequently, and I think it's whenever I try to train a unit, though I can't prove it.

Thanks for your time.

The Zola should have 10k now.
Additionally i think i bumped kings purse up to 500 but that might be excessive
For testing purposes I gave the npc factions 10k as well. It doesnt give them the ability to conquer the world as their ai is actually disabled. But playing them I was actually able to hold my own.
As the tokay i kinda steamrolled labrynna, with just hordes of hunters. Then I moved out, took rolling ridge and Stormwracked isles and went to war with ikana XD

[DarkInterloper]

Im interested to see how the map changes affect cpu factions. Like ordonas capital now borders hyrule and the gerudo, and most factions starter territories are much more connected.

[Teknokraatti]

@Cielo the Pachirisu Does it? As I pointed out, the expensive part of fielding a medieval army is to keep it both moving and in usable condition. The soldiers wages are completely secondary to the crucial materials and only few even got that. Richer knights payed a part of their tax by providing a set number of men-at-arms with the initial equipment and minor knights fought themselves, but neither expected any formal pay. Militia, by its nature, doesn't get any pay, even when levied to campaigns away from its standard stationing areas. Professional soldiers draw the same wages whether in peace or war, so that brings no difference. Peasant levies were generally given some recompensation in the form of tax alleviations for longer wars. The only troops that really expected a formal pay at a reasonable time scale were the mercenaries, which were only employed at the times of need.

If, say, a noble wanted to have effective infantry force, he had a couple of options. First, keep a band of professionals. Very expensive. Second, hire mercenaries. Unreliable access if the need isn't constant because the mercenaries didn't stay in an area with no need for them. Third, stock on some second-grade but cost-effective equipment by the mass in manors and castles and distribute them to levies when the need arises. This is basically what the French and Spanish did for the entire medieval period.


But really, most medieval conflicts were very short and limited skirmishes that only lasted for a couple of weeks, or about as long as the soldiers could go with the equipment they themselves could carry in the baggage trains. There was no centralized economic system and thus only the most powerful of lords could gather the resources to afford the logistic needs of a big army for any period of time. It was enough of a struggle that the idea was to pay the wages that were critical by plundering the countryside and giving higher loot priority.

In M2TW the upkeep represents the costs and difficulties of keeping the unit action-ready and, understandably for game reasons, is grossly underpriced. I'd wager that it is the same for this mod too. I mean, where would the Tank Gohmas go to sink all their hard-earned rupees? Even in quite recent conflicts, such as WW2, basically all soldiers only saw any of their pay when they had a leave from their unit. USSR and Germany had mass-production, national centralized economy, railroads and radios. They still couldn't have good enough logistics to manage paying wages regularly. It's basically a miracle that the France and England managed to have their 100 years war, and even that was riddled with constant lulls and pauses when they just couldn't keep their armies on the field.

[Cielo the Pachirisu]

@Teknokraati Sorry, I was in a rush when I wrote that, so I kind of didn't think about it.

You make very good points, they do challenge mine. I guess then that the question would come to how Hyrule's different civilizations see their soldiers, which to a point might be an unreasonable lot to think about and balance for. The Darknuts are likely all professional to some stretch of the word, but it's hard to tell with, say, Hyrule themselves whom follow some sort of pseudo-feudal system on a much larger scale than real life kingdoms. And that also seem, to me, to not have 'Knights' as a class of nobility so much as an upper tier of their peasant warriors. But then, is it Hyrule that gives them their weapons or do they pay for it themselves? They just seem to be soldiers, so, if this is all munitions-grade Kingdom-given weaponry supplied to them then that just kind of makes my point fall flat.

Though there is one thing I'd note, Hyrule is in a constant state of war and thus their military situation would reflect as such.


At the end of the day, though, this is a fantasy story and so a lot of thought should be given to fun, and simply put the upkeep is still really high for balance. My original​ point about the upkeep is still a gripe for me. But that's just me going back on my points.

It's nice to see someone else knowledgeable about the subject . Though given what I just said you may not see me as the same ;;;.

[Teknokraatti]

I'm not one to judge people. My own knowledge, even about subjects like these, is constantly proven inadequate. All that means is that the world is full of fascinating things for me to learn. Hopefully for everybody else too.

That said, to the discussion. There are a couple of things needed to field and use a big centralised army. First, the idea of nation is a must. There must be a clear and reliable chain of command so that the leaders of the nation can project force where it is needed and to keep that said force active. That is technically possible without the idea of a nation, but it is unreasonably hard and practically necessitates a genius at the head of the army. Second, the idea of economy must have been born and adopted (This can not happen before a national state is born) for the nation to have capacity to sustain long-range operations with big forces. This, of course, also means that the economy must be at least mercantile, IE-money-driven. Feudal exchange economy can't muster the economic power to do this. This is also useful for professional sodliers that are expected to use pretty uniform equipment and of course, is a huge boon for militia and levies. Basically professionals buy their equipment but tend to buy pretty similar items for similar jobs, but levies and militia get issued mass-produced equipment paid for by either their city, state or noble.

Now, what do we know about the KoH? The loss of the head of the state causes huge internal fluctuations. The head of the state can single-handedly command armies to be mustered and can order them to station somewhere for undescribed periods of time. The Hylian army is led by generals, not marshals. Hylians can operate their armies very far from homelands and still remain effective.
To summarise: All things point out that the KoH is a very modern faction. It is a national state governed by absolute monarchy, and it relies on money-driven (Of course rupee) economy. Also, the core and command structure of their army is professional, not an ad-hoc structure consisting of council of nobles. The Hylian soldiers are either militia (Castle guards, town guards, recruits) or professionals (Knights, crossbowmen, artillery). The funny thing is, their knights have nothing in common with the chivalric idea, IE they are not knights but men-at-arms. Hylians don't really have any levy units, all their units seem to be either militia or professionals.

But yeah, none of this is really relevant to gameplay. If we wanted a really realistic feudal army simulation, the costs would go through some rather interesting changes, which I won't discuss in this post. The important thing is that it is hard to field sizable military in the current version, something that is likely to be changed. I just wanted to explain why I thought your reasoning for the opinion was a bit off.

[Cielo the Pachirisu]

That's a fair way to think .

To be fair, the thing about a centralized army is kinda thrown away in games like this for the sake of simulating battles directed by a single player and having a grand scale. In fantasy sometimes it really is just a giant truly feudal kingdom. It's usually willing suspension of belief (and lack of knowledge on the players part, often) that it's just a feudal society working very tightly together. Then again, that often ends up being a very 'national' entity with a single head as well, such as in settings like Lord of the Rings.

Besides that, all true, nothing really I can say against that summary of KoH.

[Minigrinch]

I just tried this mod out for the first time in two years or so, is the unit balancing only in its early stages or is this final? It honestly feels quite boring, most factions now feel way to similar to each other, and even upgrading units within a faction barely feels like an upgrade (except for the usual OP units like mages or bomb throwers). I previously loved this mod due to how specialized a lot of factions were but its lost that charm for me.

[warl0rd13]

Not finished yet, most units haven't been given their attributes.

Current plan is geared more towards balance than asymmetric, though I keep a older version of HTW with the old stats for when I feel like it.

[Minigrinch]

That's a shame, it is quite tedious to play now. Having Goron guardians fight exactly the same as Lanayru conscripts or Hyrule militia is kinda boring, especially with the frequency of battles in this mod. Hell they barely fight any differently from berserkers or monks! Asymmetry is pretty much the main reason why the older total war games have such replayability.

Are there any links to the old version or did you just have a personal copy?

[warl0rd13]

I have a personal copy, Google can't seem to find a download for 3.8, though I did find one for 3.5, no idea if it's legit.

[HTD]

Current plan is geared more towards balance than asymmetric, though I keep a older version of HTW with the old stats for when I feel like it.

I don't think that is what UN intended when he designed the factions of HTW.

I absolutely loath homogenization of factions, and I honestly feel that's the primary reason why the RTS genre has all but died. I want completely-utterly-unique-from-each-other races in RTS games, I'm sick of clone factions that just have different coats of paint.

[Nihilem]

Well, if you have an idea how to make units/factions more distinct without making half of them useless and the other half op feel free to share it ..... that actually reminds me that I wanted to upload a similiar balance project into the H:TW group ..... why is W:TW and Overwatch so addictive ......

[UndyingNephalim]

My intents can be boiled down to several points:
- Every unit has a use at every point of a game. No powerful unit that makes early game units null and void. For example Town Guards have the Police ability, so while they may suck in combat compared to Flail Knights a player is still encouraged to have several of them in each city to maintain public order.
- Every faction has a means to counter another unit type, even if it's not immediately obvious.
- Yes, Assymetry.

[Nihilem]

- Every unit has a use at every point of a game. No powerful unit that makes early game units null and void. For example Town Guards have the Police ability, so while they may suck in combat compared to Flail Knights a player is still encouraged to have several of them in each city to maintain public order.

Which is an really cool idea. I hate for example in W:TW that I can just have an bigger unit for a little bit more money, making half the rooster useless in gameplay. (Best example orc: You have normal orcs, Big Uns - which are a little stronger and black orcs which are even more stronger - so if you have enough money there is no reason to go for the normal orcs.

Unfortunalety it makes the unit design ..... difficult, as there is just a limited amount of possibilities how an weaker unit can still be worth buying.

[UndyingNephalim]

Unfortunalety it makes the unit design ..... difficult, as there is just a limited amount of possibilities how an weaker unit can still be worth buying.

That's sort of why I implemented an Attribute system and limited each unit to just 3 attributes.

[Minigrinch]

To be honest though all you've done is make mid tier units useless instead of low tier units. I just stuck with guardians with some bomb throwers for 90% of my entire Goron campaign, I only got some rams after conquering around a 3rd of the map since they're the only non-ranged unit to have decent attack upgrade and keep relatively fast movement. Everything beforehand isn't worth the cost of their infrastructure and upkeep (let alone recruit times) when the same amount of guardians can be spammed from any settlement while being barely worse in combat.

The main way you should consider preventing unit obsoleting isn't by making things so homogeneous that every unit is roughly the same with some slight variation in what they counter, but by making the higher tier units way stronger, but with slow recruitment pools and higher upkeep. That way you would have militia continue to form the bulk of an army with a limited number of elite units. Sure people could still stack elite units but it would mean waiting dozens of turns to retrain it all and would only be affordable when they've essentially won the game.

Plus I don't see the point of making a Hyrule mod where the huge variety of factions fight largely the same. Why shouldn't Goron guardians have natural armour with a devastating charge when compared to Lanayru conscripts? Why should the well equipped Hyrule recruits have the same armour and attack values as a bunch Ordonian farmers? Balance them using cost or recruitment time! Even in base medieval 2 you can end up using spearmen well into late game due to their cost and ease of retraining even when you have dismounted knights and pikes available. All this sort of balancing has done is damage the fantasy which is surely the main reason most people play this mod in the first place.

[Nihilem]

Well that might work in theory but in praxis you will always choose the higher tier unit when both are available. So unless your army is constantly beaten up low tier units will become useless after a certain time.

For the individual characteristics of the factions their might be some tricks to achieve this. One way is to play a little bit more with life points, formations and training. So for example an 100 soldier moblin horde which are untrained and in horde formation play extremly different from a 50 soldier zora infantry with 2 LP each, in square formation which are highly trained. Even if they would have the same stats otherwise. But as mentioned before, if you have an good idea to improve the flavor of the factions without destroying balance feel free to share them with us.

[Minigrinch]

Well that might work in theory but in praxis you will always choose the higher tier unit when both are available. So unless your army is constantly beaten up low tier units will become useless after a certain time.

Which is my point, don't make the higher tier unit available and/or affordable in large numbers, if you have to wait dozens of turns just to get more than 1-2 elite units when you could pump out multiple weaker ones most people probably aren't going to wait around. Plus unless you've got a cheese unit like certain mages or the various giant units its pretty difficult not to take some casualties even with heavily armoured troops. Honestly this older units going obsolete thing sounds more like a strawman problem to me, I can't ever remember having units go obsolete in the base game (or other mods) other than a few intentional cases where it made sense such as billmen -> heavy billmen or arquebus -> musketeers. Hell I even use town militia instead of spear militia as a last resort sometimes and that's about the most useless unit I can think of. :p

Honestly I'm no good with game design so I can't do much in the way of constructive criticism, only voice my opinion of the mod. Sorry if I've seemed harsh or nitpicky. But even what you suggested with hit points and unit sizes sounds more interesting than how it currently is. Hell I wouldn't mind if Neph threw balance out the window as long as it means having a fun variety of factions, although both is preferable.

[Nihilem]

Oh you can be as hard as you want - its not my mod . Just saying that the only thing that is even more annoying then having clone factions is when half of your roster is useless.

And while you can certanly delay that effect with different recruitment times - when you have eneough cities that effect becomes more and more unimportant. Dont get me wrong, I dont say that every unit shall have roughly the same stats or even the same battle power. Whats important is that every unit has its purpose, an distinct role only it can fulfill.

An good example for this are the zoras. While Floodmasters and Sapphire Wardens may be more effective in terms of raw powers in comparision to the zora mages, you can combine the mages with an shock trooper shield wall formation to make them really deadly. The small gaps that form when an solid line of multiple shock troopers all go in shield wall formation is large enough to let the zora mages shoot through them (as they are straight line ligthning) but to small for enemy units to charge through. So in the end your mages stand secure behind the shield wall and can even fire into close combat without hurting your own troops .... to much. On the other hand Sapphire Wardens have the advantage of their high arc, which let them fire over the frontline to damage enemies in the second row (all support units for example).

But as I mentioned .... it takes quite the effort to find these nuances .... and then you also have the problem, that the A.I. will most certainly not use it ..... thats really frustating ......

(And bad example are the darknuts, which to be fair where not intended in this way and get an complete rework, but there whole roster consists of units which basically do all the same but are a little bit better and more expensive ...... )

[JoonasTo]

The problem of obsolete units is pretty easy to solve, just give one kind of unit to start with and only add diversity, not strength. Hyrule, for example, would start with town guard(police, light spear), get Infantry(light sword inf) added from barracks, crossbowmen(archers) from archery range, Mounted recruits from stables(light cav), Castle Guard(proper spearmen) from castle barracks, flail knights from army barrack(heavy, slow, AP inf), mounted knights(heavy, slow cav) from army stables, ironclad elites(command) from Hyrule prime only barracks, and of course, siege weapons from workshop.
The current roster of hyrule has recruits, infantry and foot knights(technically heavy inf but there really is no difference in HTW) that all fit the same slot, just different tiers. Also town guard has actual spear, not light spear attribute as they should have. So you'd either make recruits totally crap, 1 turn I'm about to get attacked better get at least something, units or just ditch them. Then you'd differ foot knights from infantry in some way or ditch them too.
But this is rather easy for Hyrule as they have a diverse roster to begin with. With as many factions as HTW has, you're not going to be able to have such full rosters for everyone. Of course, Gerudos have Horse Archers, and Gorons are gorons but Darknuts? Eh, they're going to be the most boring faction with like, 3 units.

Should also be noted that having one army of super elites is not as good as having 5 armies of conscripts. Sure, they will always win the conscripts but the conscripts will conquer 4 cities in the time you liberate one. Simple math seems to indicate the end result will be very bankrupt super elite army.

This is what I've currently gotten to in the current version if anyone's interested btw. It's just autogenerated with a couple of formulas from starting values and not balanced but not too bad.


Oh yeah sparkpikes still don't have their magic javelins?