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  1. #1
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    As part of changing from Levy/Professionals and Levy/Militia/very few Professionals, I said I'd like to fix castles as well and create a tiered system for them that better represents come castles being major fortresses and others being little more than tower houses or fortified manors.

    Sieges


    Rolling a Siege


    Rolling a siege is the same as rolling a Land Battle except the flanks are Gatehouse and Walls, not Left, Right, and Centre.

    Remember that Polearm equipped troops cannot attack Walls, as you can't haul a polearm up a ladder. Remember also that Heavy and Elite Infantry get a -2 to rolls if attacking the Walls, as getting up a ladder in such heavy equipment is very tiring.



    Major Fortresses


    Major fortresses are the greatest, most daunting military positions in Westeros. Exceptionally difficult to assault or besiege, these fortresses are capable of housing large contingents of troops and have defensive structures so vast and well-built that assaulting them would bleed many armies white.

    Major fortresses have the following attributes:
    - Will last 18 months in a Siege (1.5 RL weeks, 1 week and 3.5 days).
    - Have a +12 roll to any Siege assault undertaken against them.
    - Can hold their entire garrison plus 300% of the base Land Levy points of their province.

    List of Major Fortresses:

    - The Red Keep (King's Landing)
    - Dragonstone
    - Casterly Rock
    - Storm's End
    - Winterfell
    - Harrenhal (See special Harrenhal rules)
    - Highgarden
    - The Eyrie

    Harrenhal


    Harrenhal was once the mightiest fortress in Westeros prior to it's destruction wrought by dragonfire. The fortress lies in ruin and gets only a +6 defensive bonus while in ruins. If restored, it gains the full +12 bonus but also gains the ability to hold up to 25,000 points of defenders.

    Repairing the fortress will cost 120,000 Dragons and will take 1 ingame year to do.



    Castles


    Castles are purpose-built military positions whose primary purpose is to militarily dominate the surrounding region. Designed with warfare in mind, taking these positions is costly and dangerous, with the defenders having many options and positions from which to resist an assault.

    Castles have the following attributes:
    - Will last 1 year in a siege (1 RL week).
    - Have a +8 roll to any Siege assault undertaken against them.
    - Can hold their entire garrison plus 200% of the base Land Levy points of their province.

    List of Castles:

    The North

    The Dreadfort
    Karhold
    Moat Cailin
    Torrhen's Square
    Deepwood Motte


    The Riverlands

    Riverrun
    Seagard
    The Twins
    Raventree Hall


    The Vale

    The Bloody Gate
    Gates of the Moon


    The Westerlands

    Castamere (if rebuilt)
    Goldentooth
    Deep Den


    The Crownlands

    Maegor's Holdfast (the Holdfast inside the Red Keep, thus only used as a Castle if the Red Keep itself is captured)
    Duskendale


    The Reach

    Battle Isle (in Oldtown, but not Oldtown itself: only the Holdfast of Battle Isle gains these traits and thus will only be used as a Castle if Oldtown itself is captured)
    Ashford
    Brightwater Keep


    The Stormlands

    Nightsong
    Griffin's Roost
    Blackhaven


    Dorne

    Sunspear
    Yronwood
    Starfall
    Prince's Pass


    Iron Isles

    Pyke
    Ten Towers
    Orkwatch
    Hammerhorn




    Minor Castles


    All other seats not mentioned in the above sections are Minor Castles. These structures, though in possession of a relatively fortified keep and perhaps a curtain wall, are not the major military installations that other, larger castles are supposed to be. More symbols of power and centres of regional government, these locations are capable of barring their gates and putting men on the walls to repel invaders, but were not built to break armies against their walls.

    Minor Castles have the following attributes:
    - If an invading army is known to be in the area before it arrives at the Minor Castle, it will last for 6 months (3.5 RL days) in a siege. Otherwise, it will last 1.5 RL days (~2.5 months). The enemy army is known to be in the area ifa friendly army has been defeated in the area ("the area" meaning anywhere up to 2 provinces away) or if a scout roll has found that army in the area.
    - Have a +4 roll to any Siege assault undertaken against them.
    - Can hold their entire garrison plus 100% of the base Land Levy points of their province.

    Minor Castles can be upgraded to Castles (and gain the bonuses and attributes of them) if a player builds a Tier II Siege Defence building in that Minor Castle.


    Siege Equipment

    Tier 1 - Rams & Light Ladders
    - 12 hours to construct.
    - Does not require any character in the besieging army to have a Siege Engineer retinue member.
    - Required to attack Minor Castles.

    Tier 2 - Siege Ladders
    - 24 hours to construct.
    - Requires any character in the besieging army to have a Siege Engineer retinue member.
    - Required to attack Castles, but can also be used against Minor Castles.
    - Grants +3 to siege attack rolls.

    Tier 3 - Siege Towers
    - 36 hours to construct
    - Requires any character in the besieging army to have a Siege Engineer retinue member.
    - Required to attack Major Fortresses, but can also be used against Castles. Cannot be used against Minor Castles.
    - Grants +6 to siege attack rolls. Does not stack with Siege Ladders.
    - Heavy and Elite Infantry using Siege Towers to attack Walls do not take a -2 to rolls any more.



    I've tried to divide the realm's many Lordly seats into something more sensible. Now only actual purpose-built military installations get the full castle bonus with the rest of the seats made rather weaker. Players can obviously build +Siege Defence upgrades if they live in a weaker castle in order to improve their durability.

    It should make seizing minor forts for conquest or campaigning purposes much easier, while important military structures require a greater investment in siege armies and equipment, while the greatest fortresses of the land will require a major and prolonged siege effort.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Poach; December 19, 2015 at 12:33 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    Pyke should be a Major Fortress, and I really hate the siege engineer requirement to build some siege equipment. Assaulting castles is hard enough without having to expend extra money on a siege engineer to do nothing but allow you to spend more money on siege equipment. Make it so that engineers speed up the building process by double, but don't make them necessary to build certain types of machines.

  3. #3
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    I had Pyke as a major fortress to start with but demoted it, I'm open to promoting it again if others broadly agree. I disagree on the Siege Engineer though, I think you should need to come prepared to take actual military castles, but we'll see what the rest think of it.

  4. #4
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    I like it.

  5. #5

    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    It's just a money sink that makes actually going to war that much more difficult to do. People rarely ever effectively go on the offensive anyway. From a mechanics standpoint it promoted sitting around and waiting for your enemy to come to you.

  6. #6

    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    Yep, buff every Highlord in this setting except for Blacktyde. I love challenges, hence why I have an entire economical program already...



  7. #7
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    If it's any consolation, Dread, I don't get buffed because Ten Towers doesn't exist yet.

  8. #8
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    I'm not arbitrarily buffing High Lords just because they're High Lords. Give me Lore backing for their seats being of particular military significance and I'll upgrade it if appropriate.

  9. #9

    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    I'm not arbitrarily buffing High Lords just because they're High Lords. Give me Lore backing for their seats being of particular military significance and I'll upgrade it if appropriate.
    It's not a question of lore, but rather of balance. I'm actually asking myself currently how my Blacktyde family is supposed to survive anything, if I do not rush to the Walls Tier 2 and go on a pure defensive war, while other families have 4-5 vassals which can easily arm up combined 15k troops, while I have to stick to my personal maximum with no vassals. Only have prepared currently one trump card, but it will most likely help me only during early game.

    Farwynd has probably the same problem. Just gamespecific, otherwise I would agree that Blacktyde doesn't need it. People might have realized that I currently try to go on economic gameplay like with Merryweather, but Longtable was at least something you were able to expand on. Unless you do not ignored for 5 years like in the game, where I got Edgerton with Daryn Targaryen and a similiar income, it forces me into inactivity, hence limiting me in RP moves.
    Right now I don't even know if I should try to get out my planned merchant RP with the Westerlands, because people are so hostile towards trade mechanics and everyone is like "Yarrr, let's reave everything at the same time!"

    Hence why I get worried about castles on the Iron Islands.



  10. #10
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    High Lords on the Iron Islands aren't balanced and aren't meant to be: being a nominal "King" because you're on your own island doesn't make you the equal of other "Kings" on their own islands. I don't agree with the argument "I'm a King too so I should get what they get". Why is Blacktyde's castle the equal of Pyke?

  11. #11

    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    I'd say that for this setting for balancing purposes Pyke could be left in the second tier. If we ever go back to an all Westeros setting it should probably be promoted.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    We also need more people weighing in on the two suggestions so far: from Ponti that Siege Engineer retinue members should only reduce the time taken to build equipment, not be required for it, and from LD that all High Lords should get Castles because they're High Lords.

  13. #13

    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    We also need more people weighing in on the two suggestions so far: from Ponti that Siege Engineer retinue members should only reduce the time taken to build equipment, not be required for it, and from LD that all High Lords should get Castles because they're High Lords.
    I'm only suggesting it, because right now I feel that every High Lord could theoretically just go in for the smaller High Lordships and absorb them into their kingdom to be fair, leaveing us again with just 3 pretenders, the most likely one being Greyjoy.
    Vice versa my House can't do anything due to the unit limit and neither do I have any kind of protection.
    All rule changes so far do benefit only the richer ones - compare it to the Westerlands problematic in past games.

    All what balances this out are partly reliable alliances between me and few Petty Kings, but theoretically nothing would stop i.e. Greyjoy, Harlaw or Goodbrother to just come at me and invade me. Have no vassals to call in while I have to buff up my economy, while others can go straight for militia, raid and then mayhaps sail some day to Blacktyde and say "Sup, you lose."
    And nothing can prevent it apart from lucky events.



  14. #14
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    I agree with Ponti about the siege engineer.

    Dread, I don't agree with on this. High Lords are simply the richest or most influential lords in a region, the marshals of their area. That doesn't mean they should have an enormous military structure.

  15. #15
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    Except the RP rules of the Iron Islands. Ironborn aren't allowed to fight Ironborn.

  16. #16

    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylord_Conor21 View Post
    Except the RP rules of the Iron Islands. Ironborn aren't allowed to fight Ironborn.
    Yeah, doubt it will happen on longterm. People will get bored, once raids are over/get repelled/whatever happens and then the plotting begins.



  17. #17
    Narf's Avatar Reach for the Stars.
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    I disagree, because currently you can only upgrade your castle in four tiers. You can keep building on it for years and years. And no matter how successful a fully upgraded high lord castle will be better than that of a small lords castle, no matter the time effort or money spend.. Make it ludicrously expensive. Require RP. Anything, but the capped tier system. This just creates a sensible START. It does not make for a sensible future in 42 weeks.
    Last edited by Narf; December 19, 2015 at 10:08 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    Narf, as usual, speaks with wisdom. Though people of our experience with RPG games might be more forward sighted than what is usual. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

  19. #19
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    If I understand you correctly, it would be preferable to ideally start with weaker/base holdings and everyone just upgrade them up from there, organically creating the major fortresses?

  20. #20
    Narf's Avatar Reach for the Stars.
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    Default Re: New Sieges/Castles Mechanics

    Thank you. See Harrehall. IS magnificent. And it can be fully repaired for 120000. Shouldn't I be capable of building something maybe not as great, but GREAt if I had 1000000 Threw them at my castle. Started a RP and build on it for an extended period with attached rp of getting the large amounts of stone and so forth, labour and so forth. And in the end have the mods arbitrate what my mechanic wise result is for such a venture? Make any general limitations you want of what can be easily bought in bulls wares. One shouldn't be able to just dumb this amount and be lord of the greatest landmark in the area. But neither should one be closed off from creating something magnificent with ones imagination.

    This is not only something for castles. I LOVED. That in early editions of this game one could go on a quest to find a Valyrian sword! How cool was that, i mean awesome. Now your house is changed and have a hereditary sword to distinguish themselves by. Just.. Epic. And you made it hard. Great.

    Or more closely related to our current setting. Let people make a magnificent flagship! For example the Lord of Lordstown with their great smiths. He want a imposing unique flagship to strike fear into his enemies on reaves- And he orders his men to build a grand ship, and the smiths that he lorewise already possess many off to construct light metal plating for the ship. Now that tells a bit of who he is and everybody know. Thats the flagship of lordstown. Should it be op and break the game? Ofcourse not. But should be it be strong? Yes. In that case, I as mod would give those aboard + 2 to survival maybe. And let it count as one and a half great warship or two. Nothing that breaks the game. But makes it unique.

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