How do you use pikemen?

[ben123]

Hello everyone,

Long time TW player and visitor here, I have a question though.

How do you use the pikemen in MTW2 effectively? They seem to work fine vs cavalry (while bracing) but against infantry they immediately throw down their pikes and use swords. I've used some combo's of w/wo "stand ground" and/or w/wo "phalanx" but I don't really see much difference. Also do you let your pikemen charge or just "brace for impact"?

Thx

[snuggans]

dont take me seriously since ive only used pikemen in the pavia demo but i think the spear wall formation is only for use against cavalry. seems like the way they hold the spears near the ground facing upward is to prepare against a charge..

[a8686]

I tend to agree with the above poster.. Good against cav... But their stats suck so badly that they seem to be useless against even pesants...

Dunno

[Endeav]

I've done custom battles and pikes aren't half bad.

Since they come later on in the game you have to absolutely make sure you give them their armor upgrades. French pikes for example without their armor upgrades will be decidmated by any unit of dismounted feudal knights, but once you give them their two armor upgrades, they will most likely win the same fight. Keep them in spear wall with defensive mode on, and do not attack. You have to get them in the bracing position (where they kneel and such, holding the pikes forward) to withstand charges, then once they are engaged, keep them in defense and right click on the target. They shouldn't switch to swords and if they keep their pikes out, they will win most fights against infantry units (well, except of course the uber infantry units that cost 3x as much as a pike unit).

[eventhorizen]

Your pike units cannot be used as standalone infantry, they must be a part of a formation.

Set them up with spearwall and guard on, then use them as a centre of your army that is undefeatable against melee and cavalry.

[a8686]

All these things are well and good.. But as an aggresive player, I'm on the offence alot and pikes dont cut it.. attempt to move them up on something ind defence/wall and once in attack range the pikes go over the badguys heads and they break into hand to hand where they get eaten.. Shortly after I lose my center and my line rolls up like a carpet..


EDIT: Also they cant seem to keep up with the normal march speed of my other troops so my line breaks before I can even get to the enemy half the time

[eventhorizen]

All these things are well and good.. But as an aggresive player, I'm on the offence alot and pikes dont cut it.
EDIT: Also they cant seem to keep up with the normal march speed of my other troops so my line breaks before I can even get to the enemy half the time

Pikes were used in this time period to defend gunpowder troops from enemy cavalry. Trying to use Pikes as an offensive unit, when they clearly are not, is like trying to use your cavalry to form a defensive centre to your formation.

If you intend to chase, harry, and outmanouvre the enemy in offensive manouvres, then use the correct troops and do it quickly. Pikes are cleary meant to be used to defend superior ranged firepower from more mobile enemies.

I.E. The units you are using in your strategy, are the units you would use to form a counter to your strategy.

Pikes are a wall with spikes, attempting to use them in any other method is futile, unless their equipment is of a sufficient standard and their numbers high enough for them to engage even more feebly armed and armoured troops in direct melee.

There are plenty of troops types for you to be able to form the type of army you desire, not least two handed weaponry shock troops and the more durable dismounted knights, or cavalry.

Pikes are meant to turn the enemies aggression and charge against them. This can be a valid tactic if you are on the offence, but only in situations where you know the enemy will attack you, otherwise you will be spending the battle grappling with the limitations of the troops you have selected, as well as the enemies tactics.

[Damocles]

Actually...

In RL, Pikes were amazing shock weapons.

There is nothing quite like a block of 500 screaming Swiss or Germans bristling with piles charging you to clear just about anyone else from the field. This reigned supreme for about a century. I forget the exact battle, but its heyday was over when it involved attacking an entrenched position on an mountain slope with plenty of cannon.

In the game, if you can get it working right, with guard off, the pikemen will start pushing forward, thrusting out their pikes. It looks awesome and is devastating. If you keep guard on, they won't attack.

It's tricky tho. Half the time they just draw swords.

[danes]

Actually...
In RL, Pikes were amazing shock weapons.

There is nothing quite like a block of 500 screaming Swiss or Germans bristling with piles charging you to clear just about anyone else from the field. This reigned supreme for about a century. I forget the exact battle, but its heyday was over when it involved attacking an entrenched position on an mountain slope with plenty of cannon.

where are u basing this assertion on? what's your source? or are you just making your opinion sound factual when in fact it is not?

charging with pikes? really? can u imagine how hard it is to RUN holding a 7-foot long oak&iron pike ABOVE YOUR HEAD while KEEPING tight formation? wasn't it that even in RTW, pikemen would raise pikes and charge with sidearms?

are all my sentences in question form?

[kallistus]

where are u basing this assertion on? what's your source? or are you just making your opinion sound factual when in fact it is not?

charging with pikes? really? can u imagine how hard it is to RUN holding a 7-foot long oak&iron pike ABOVE YOUR HEAD while KEEPING tight formation? wasn't it that even in RTW, pikemen would raise pikes and charge with sidearms?

are all my sentences in question form?

The pike phalanx was indeed a powerful offensive shock weapon, from Macedon to Switzerland. If it could retain its formation.

The term charge does not necessarily mean a screaming head long run. Maybe you have watched Braveheart one too many times but the run, if there was any running, occurred only at the very last stage of the attack. Cavalry, for example, walked, then trotted, and then sometimes galloped. Imperial Cuirassiers of the 17th century only ever trotted; Gustavus Alophus’ Swedes re-introduced the galloping charge to European cavalry warfare. But Napoleon Bonaparte’s French cuirassiers maintained a trot 150 year later.

Pikes may charge, but it’s unlikely they actually ran, as this would result in a loss of formation.

A pike is also considerably longer than 7 feet; more like 18 to 21. It has to be able to outreach the 12-foot lance of the cavalry otherwise the infantry will get picked off. And the pikes are lowered in the charge.

I believe the battle Damocles is referring to is Marignano (1515).

[GODzilla]

It's quite simple: Use them in "guard mode" against cavalry and disable the "guard mode" against infantry. This way they'll performn quite good vs infantry. It's the same with hellbardmen.

[a8686]

Pikes were used in this time period to defend gunpowder troops from enemy cavalry. Trying to use Pikes as an offensive unit, when they clearly are not, is like trying to use your cavalry to form a defensive centre to your formation.

If you intend to chase, harry, and outmanouvre the enemy in offensive manouvres, then use the correct troops and do it quickly. Pikes are cleary meant to be used to defend superior ranged firepower from more mobile enemies.

I.E. The units you are using in your strategy, are the units you would use to form a counter to your strategy.

Pikes are a wall with spikes, attempting to use them in any other method is futile, unless their equipment is of a sufficient standard and their numbers high enough for them to engage even more feebly armed and armoured troops in direct melee.

There are plenty of troops types for you to be able to form the type of army you desire, not least two handed weaponry shock troops and the more durable dismounted knights, or cavalry.

Pikes are meant to turn the enemies aggression and charge against them. This can be a valid tactic if you are on the offence, but only in situations where you know the enemy will attack you, otherwise you will be spending the battle grappling with the limitations of the troops you have selected, as well as the enemies tactics.

Thats what I was trying to say... I was saying how as an offencive unit they are terrible.. The poster before me said that In formation I can use them effectivly..

[Aldaris]

Pikes were used in this time period to defend gunpowder troops from enemy cavalry. Trying to use Pikes as an offensive unit, when they clearly are not, is like trying to use your cavalry to form a defensive centre to your formation.

Eh, where did you get THAT from? Pikes were used offensively and defensively, try reading up on Landsknecht and Reislaeufer (the swiss equivalent) tactics. However, they were indeed mostly used in combined arms blocks consisting of pikes, halberds, two-handed swords (to some degree) and arquebuses.
The swiss for example, which were among the most feared troops in europe at the end of the 15th century, used pikes almost exclusively, arrayed in huge blocks. A typical army would be divided into a vanguard, the main force or "Gewalthaufen" and a rearguard, supported by some arquebus, crossbows and artillery. Such a pike army seemed almost invincible for some years, and a lot of old-style feudal armies lost badly to them.

EDIT: Hmm, was a bit late with that answer. Anyway, if Damocles really referred to Marignano in 1515, he was not quite right about the heyday of pikes being over. The swiss lost that battle and a lot of their nimbus of absolute superiority, and it became apparent that combined arms were more important than ever. If anything, it led to a tendency to increase the number of arquebusiers and cannon in relation to the pikemen.

[Darsh]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marignano

[Aldaris]

Err... yes? How does that contradict what I wrote?

[jaklei]

Pikes were used in this time period to defend gunpowder troops from enemy cavalry. Trying to use Pikes as an offensive unit, when they clearly are not, is like trying to use your cavalry to form a defensive centre to your formation.

If you intend to chase, harry, and outmanouvre the enemy in offensive manouvres, then use the correct troops and do it quickly. Pikes are cleary meant to be used to defend superior ranged firepower from more mobile enemies.

I.E. The units you are using in your strategy, are the units you would use to form a counter to your strategy.

Pikes are a wall with spikes, attempting to use them in any other method is futile, unless their equipment is of a sufficient standard and their numbers high enough for them to engage even more feebly armed and armoured troops in direct melee.

There are plenty of troops types for you to be able to form the type of army you desire, not least two handed weaponry shock troops and the more durable dismounted knights, or cavalry.

Pikes are meant to turn the enemies aggression and charge against them. This can be a valid tactic if you are on the offence, but only in situations where you know the enemy will attack you, otherwise you will be spending the battle grappling with the limitations of the troops you have selected, as well as the enemies tactics.

Using cavalry in your middle line as an defensive/offensive unit is awfoul effective against unprepeared enemy lines.
If you could drive through the enemy with the knights and then quickly follow up with pikemen then you could most probably split the enemy in two.

Sending two infantry flanking forces to engage the enemy line after the pikemen is in place wouldnt be that bad either.

I just came up with the theory, im going to test it now

[Xatham]

Pikes were used in this time period to defend gunpowder troops from enemy cavalry. Trying to use Pikes as an offensive unit, when they clearly are not, is like trying to use your cavalry to form a defensive centre to your formation.

Except, you know, the ones who started the pike formation : the swiss pikemen. They would be aggressive and close in with the enemy as fast as possible while keeping their unit cohesion. It's what made them so fearsome.

[Aldaris]

Not only the swiss. Late 15th and a lot of 16th century warfare were dominated by pike formations in the infantry department. And they sure as hell didn't just go to "defensive stance" opposite each other and then made a staredown contest.

[\/endetta]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikemen

"Such Swiss and Landsknecht phalanxes also contained two-handed swordsmen and halberdiers for close action against both infantry and attacking cavalry."
(Quoted from the "Renaissance Heyday" section of the article.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bad-war.jpg
Once again, the Swiss were so good also because they mixed halberdiers and two handed swordsmen into their formations. There resally was no, purely pike only formation. When the "push of pike" got too close and pikes became unmanagable, the halberdiers and swordsmen that were mixed in with the pikemen dominated.

[Mithradates]

The pikemen in Medieval 2 sucks big time.
I think the fancy animation is the cause of all problems, they cant reform enough fast or simple can not reform after some casualties (same with the gunpowder units and the reloading-line changing animation)

GIVE ME BACK MY MACEDONIAN PHALANGITES!!

Edit:
Pikemen were uber in the medieval times, swiss, spanish tercio etc I hope some modders will make some custom animation for them so they WILL do what they supposed to do, holding the line and not breaking formation 2 sec after contact.