Battle System Addendum

[Pontifex Maximus]

initial proposal

initial proposal: Principles and terms: Special Actions: All overall commanders within a force will have the power to issue three special action orders to their troops, while a secondary commander of a different house may issue one. Additional special actions may be issued in a ratio of 2/1 for specific war traits. For example, in an open field battle with a character with +2 battles, an additional special action may be used regardless of command position. Someone with +2 siege could only use the additional bonus in a siege or siege assault. Someone with a rearguard trait would need to stack two special actions to activate the bonus. Presumed battle orders: All flanks, if there are flanks, will be presumed to charge straight forward in a line across the field to engage the enemy if no orders are given otherwise. So, if nobody submits timely battle orders or special action orders, the two lines will simply charge one another and the mathematical result will be the result of the battle. If one person sends battle orders and special action orders and the other side doesn’t, there could be a disastrous result for the unprepared side. Special actions may be stacked Special actions may not be so detailed as to constitute two special actions. For example, a flanking movement of heavy cavalry with a goal to find and kill the enemy commander would count as TWO special actions; one for the flanking movement and one to attack the retinue of the enemy commander. Moderators have discretion in this area. Battle orders may not exceed 250 typed words. Battles occur in three stages Stage One: Stage one is the private submission of battle orders and disposition of force to the battle moderator. Orders and disposition should be given for the left, center, and right. No further division or subdivision is permitted without using a special action. When a battle is imminent, players have a maximum of 12 hours to submit orders to the moderator unless every party agrees to an extension. Stage Two: Stage two is the public posting by a player of the positioning of their troops in a battle formation, identical to that which was submitted to the moderator. This is the disposition of the force. Once this has been publicly posted, players will have a reasonable amount of time (not to exceed 12 hours, unless some special circumstance and mutual assent of all parties) to use one special action order that has not previously been used in light of the new information that has been posted publicly. Stages one and two can be done almost simultaneously. Stage Three: This is the ultimate portion of the battle. (This is the mathematical portion. I’m much more open to suggestions here since the battle calculators have become so sophisticated. Essentially I think the most simple version would be to look at the orders and add modifiers on the flanks in terms of battle odds and we can RP out the consequences. For example, a left flanking action that goes unopposed might lead to a rout of the left. A second stacked special action that was going to be triggered upon success, say a battlefield assassination, would then be used.) Special action success rates will follow the same basic pattern. Roll for 1-4. 1 is a failure of the action. 2 is a mostly failure of the action. 3 is a moderate success of the action. 4 is critical success of the action. Based on these results, moderators can do what they like as it makes sense to do in game. ----- Nota Bene: These rules are pretty slippery, open to interpretation, and arbitrary. They are done so on purpose. The battle calculators makes the outcome of battles completely determinable beforehand. That then influences actions in game, which leads to either intentional or unintentional metagaming. Adding an altogether mysterious element to the equation negates this. Someone with numerically superior numbers now can only be moderately confident about victory instead of handed the victory on a silver platter. Those with fewer men have not completely lost the incentive to fight. This proposal isn’t great, and this isn’t intended as a final product. I'm also keen for suggestions as how to, for the sake of simplicity of resolving battles, how we can quantify RP/battle order results as a numerical modifier to our current battle calculator. -------

Formalized Rule:

Before a battle takes place, players will have the opportunity to issue special orders, view the battlefield, and make limited last minute adjustments to their battle strategy.

Special Actions: All overall commanders within a force will have the power to issue three special action orders to their troops, while a secondary commander of a different house may issue one. Additional special actions may be issued in a ratio of 2/1 for specific war traits. For example, in an open field battle with a character with +2 battles, an additional special action may be used regardless of command position. Someone with +2 siege could only use the additional bonus in a siege or siege assault. Someone with a rearguard trait would need to stack two special actions to activate the bonus.

Presumed battle orders: All flanks, if there are flanks, will be presumed to charge straight forward in a line across the field to engage the enemy if no orders are given otherwise. So, if nobody submits timely battle orders or special action orders, the two lines will simply charge one another and the mathematical result will be the result of the battle. If one person sends battle orders and special action orders and the other side doesn’t, there could be a disastrous result for the unprepared side.

Other Rules:

1. Special actions may be stacked

2. Special actions may not be so detailed as to constitute two special actions. For example, a flanking movement of heavy cavalry with a goal to find and kill the enemy commander would count as TWO special actions; one for the flanking movement and one to attack the retinue of the enemy commander. Moderators have discretion in this area.

3. Battle orders may not exceed 250 typed words.

Special Actions may be ordered in two pre-battle stages of preparation:

Stage One: Stage one is the private submission of battle orders and disposition of force to the battle moderator. Orders and disposition should be given for the left, center, and right.

1. These orders may include any number of permitted Special Actions.

2. Once issued, Special Actions may not be revoked.

3. No further division or subdivision of forces into "units" smaller than a flank (right, center, left) is permitted without using a special action.

4. When a battle is imminent, players have a maximum of 12 hours to submit orders to the moderator unless every party agrees to an extension.

5. Battle orders may not exceed 250 words and should be written clearly and concisely. Unintelligible orders may be ignored or asked to be clarified. Special actions within the orders must be unambiguous and conspicuous.

6. Special Actions must be plausible. For example, trying to snipe someone with a crossbow would not be permitted. Finding a certain character on the battlefield, if reasonable, may be permitted and a duel may ensue, however.

Stage Two: Stage two is the public posting by a moderator of the positioning of their troops in a battle formation, identical to that which was submitted to the moderator. This is the disposition of the force. Once this has been publicly posted, players will have a reasonable amount of time (not to exceed 12 hours, unless some special circumstance and mutual assent of all parties) to use one special action order that has not previously been used in light of the new information that has been posted publicly.

1. A moderator should post a description of the disposition of forces that would be commensurate with scanning the enemy lines from your own lines. Numbers, types of units being faced, and the heraldry of those leading either flank might be noticeable in varying degrees. A Special Action to try to scout out the enemy, while possible, may not lead to extremely detailed results.

2. Descriptions of either force need not exceed anything as short as two sentences, the level of detail available to the moderator is his or her own discretion to use and may be informed by earlier scouting rolls.

Conclusion: Special action success rates will follow the same basic pattern. Roll for 1-4. 1 is a failure of the action. 2 is a mostly failure of the action. 3 is a moderate success of the action. 4 is critical success of the action. Based on these results, moderators can do what they like as it makes sense to do in game.

1. Moderators will add modifiers to battle rolls depending on the success of each action. Successful, practical actions should be heavily influential in the outcome of the battle.

[Pontifex Maximus]

We also need to figure out naval levies.

[Poach]

I see nothing here that needs actual change to the mathematics we currently use, or the existing calculators. This, to me, is very important because it took me the better part of a few days to actually design and build the excel calculator that makes doing major battles so easy. I'm hostile to changes so radical that the calculator is rendered obsolete unless someone provides a new calculator with the changes.

Rather, this appears to beef up the "pre-rolls" section, allowing players to spend "Special Actions" to get bonuses for their flanks or plans, and a short "public phase" that might allow last minute changes to react to the battle.

Thus in fleshing this out I propose, or appeal I suppose, that you focus on Stages 1 and 2 as the revolutionary aspect and keep the maths currently in use the same for Stage 3.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I'm happy to let you figure out the mathematical portions of it in order to reconcile it with the battle calculator, but I would like strategy and other factors to play at least a 50% role in the calculations (supposing an evenly matched army). It leaves a lot up to discretion and common sense. For example: even rolling critical success with flanking cavalry, if you only issue special action orders to 25 men, will not matter in a battle of 20,000 troops. A critical success for 500 flanking cavalry might have much wider impacts on that flank though.

[Poach]

The new battle calculator is a sandbox now: all I do is tell it what troops I'm rolling for and it includes only those troops. As such, there's huge flexibility: you can have any mix of troops facing any mix of troops per stage.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I don't think I need to formalize the rules any more, unless someone can think of some loophole that might be exploited. I assume moderators will impose stiff battle penalties on people who try to exploit this system.

[Poach]

A list of what sort of special actions you might see will very much help me in particular distinguish between what is "normal orders" and what I need to use points for to determine whether "Special Actions" are allowed to be undertaken.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Acceptable Special Actions

1. 500 heavy cavalry flank left/right

2. 300 light cavalry are held as a rearguard to defend in the event of a rout with the intention of sparing a mass slaughter

3. Missile units will focus fire on the center of the line in an attempt to force the infantry into a tight formation

(example of stacked actions)

4. A feint of retreat in the center will occur in an attempt to create a bowl effect along the line

5. If the feint is successful, the left flank will push inwards in an attempt to encircle the enemy army

6. Infantry will lock into a defensive shield wall and advance upon the enemy

7. Polearms shall hide among the cavalry in anticipation of an enemy cavalry charge in order to maximize the flank's defensive capabilities and afford an element of surprise (seem complex, but its really just ONE action with SEVERAL potential outcomes. Players should be able to highlight the potential outcomes they would find favorable so that something like it can be applied if it is successful)

Borderline Acceptable Special Actions

1. Archers will use flaming arrows to frighten enemy horses so they won't attack (too manipulative/conclusory about effects of a particular action)

2. Troops will ford the river (would need to have some sort of consequence if a low roll, like troops being swept away by the current)

3. A special unit of 100 cavalry will scour the battlefield looking for character y's banner and then attack seeking to kill him (this sort of thing will have to be very case by case, and the opposing party should probably be given the opportunity for a duel in evenly matched circumstances)

Unacceptable Special Actions

1. All archers will shoot arrows to kill characters x, y, and z. (way too specific)

2. Cavalry will flank the left and when they are successful they will attack the center troops in the back (this should be two actions, not one)

3. 500 infantry will hide in the woods and wait to spring a trap (too vague and/or too much powergaming without some sort of obvious situations like the battle occuring ni the Kingswood)

4. Flank x will do whatever they have to do in order to counter y tactic (you cannot be this vague, special actions should be somewhat specific)

[The Mad Skylord]

Curiously, would be looking for suitable terrain be a Special Action, or would it be a pre-battle preparation?

For example, looking for a small copse, or a hillock to defend in an area like the Reach, or a rocky hill to defend in say the Westerlands.

[Dirty Chai]

What if special actions contradict the original orders?

And what about the public posting? Is that supposed to be what the both players can IC reasonably see of each other? So like cavalry hidden in forest, for example, not showing up?

Curiously, would be looking for suitable terrain be a Special Action, or would it be a pre-battle preparation?

For example, looking for a small copse, or a hillock to defend in an area like the Reach, or a rocky hill to defend in say the Westerlands.

From talking with Ponti before, he said that defensive terrain etc should be looked for before battle is met, by scouting and saying that you're looking for that kind of terrain.
It might then be likely to be in your favor. Otherwise he said terrain should be random but usually flat.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Curiously, would be looking for suitable terrain be a Special Action, or would it be a pre-battle preparation?

For example, looking for a small copse, or a hillock to defend in an area like the Reach, or a rocky hill to defend in say the Westerlands.

I would consider something of that nature to require action stacking, which could be dangerous but could be very rewarding as well. It might look like:

1. Surveyors will attempt to find a position from which to ambush the enemy

(if successful, the moderator should respond what sort of nature the ground is, a small hill, or crop of trees, how many men it might hide. In this case let's assume its a small area of trees that could conceal 250 men)

2. 250 men will set up an ambush in that area and will attack upon x condition being met.

Something grander than that would need to be sought out before prebattle stuff.

What if special actions contradict the original orders?

That could negate the both if it is unclear. I don't see how that would be favorable for someone to do in game though. Once orders are given, special actions can contradict them if necessary after phase 1 and 2. So you see that the enemy has placed all the cavalry on the left and this messes up your entire strategy, you can use that last special action to try to mitigate the damage that could be done to your overall strategy.

And what about the public posting? Is that supposed to be what the both players can IC reasonably see of each other? So like cavalry hidden in forest, for example, not showing up?

Exactly, and the moderator will post it. Players have input based upon what they submit to the moderator (and attempting to conceal your true forces WILL count as a special action). So for example, ten ships vs ten ships, they will be able to see eachother after Phase 1.