JWANTS BALANCE PATCH 0.21 VET HOTSEAT 1

[KingofPoland]

Gondor up https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6H...ew?usp=sharing

[JWANT]

Tough defeat for Gondor but their army is still strong! They have recaptured the empty Osgiliaths. Other Men factions played.

Dwarves!

http://www.mediafire.com/download/9t...Dwarves_11.sav

[joerock22]

Some more Easterlings are hunted down and slain, and Kelepar is captured with the help of a spy.

Elves:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...ew?usp=sharing

Screenshots:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...ew?usp=sharing

[General Dragon.]

Mordor is up!
https://www.sendspace.com/file/26smec

[Adanedhel]

Dol Guldur taken back with the help of a spy. Druadan Forest and both Osgiliaths also captured.

Isengard: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...GM2eC05ZTA0UXM
Battle: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...XpETVBKcWw5b0E

I would also like to raise an issue that me and Chieftian discussed concerning Gondor's use of his ships. After capturing both Osgiliaths and setting camp on the other side of the river, Gondor simply disembarked his units from ship, took the two settlements back, and went safely aboard his ship again, where he's untouchable. I cannot do anything to him, while he is a constant threat to me, forcing me to just stay around and do nothing!

How did Mordor-Gondor fights look in the past? The recent duels that I've seen ended with Gondor winning, but does Mordor actually have any chance to win without ships? I think it's higly unlikely and for this reason Gondor should not be allowed to use them in such a way. The only purpose I see for ships would be to transport units, but they would need to disembark onto land each time. Otherwise, this just doesn't make sense.

[JWANT]

I would also like to raise an issue that me and Chieftian discussed concerning Gondor's use of his ships. After capturing both Osgiliaths and setting camp on the other side of the river, Gondor simply disembarked his units from ship, took the two settlements back, and went safely aboard his ship again, where he's untouchable. I cannot do anything to him, while he is a constant threat to me, forcing me to just stay around and do nothing!

How did Mordor-Gondor fights look in the past? The recent duels that I've seen ended with Gondor winning, but does Mordor actually have any chance to win without ships? I think it's higly unlikely and for this reason Gondor should not be allowed to use them in such a way. The only purpose I see for ships would be to transport units, but they would need to disembark onto land each time. Otherwise, this just doesn't make sense.

I have tried this strategy before as Gondor but it failed because Harad was able to defeat Gondor's navy. In a hotseat without Harad, ships are not usually allowed which is done to prevent Gondor from having an unfair advantage using ships.

Since Harad is in this hotseat I don't see why there are any restrictions needed for use of ships. Mordor can simply overpower Gondor who also has to fight Harad so taking away one of Gondor's advantages (temporary advantage until Harad builds a navy) would be even less fair to Gondor.

[joerock22]

I would also like to raise an issue that me and Chieftian discussed concerning Gondor's use of his ships. After capturing both Osgiliaths and setting camp on the other side of the river, Gondor simply disembarked his units from ship, took the two settlements back, and went safely aboard his ship again, where he's untouchable. I cannot do anything to him, while he is a constant threat to me, forcing me to just stay around and do nothing!

How did Mordor-Gondor fights look in the past? The recent duels that I've seen ended with Gondor winning, but does Mordor actually have any chance to win without ships? I think it's higly unlikely and for this reason Gondor should not be allowed to use them in such a way. The only purpose I see for ships would be to transport units, but they would need to disembark onto land each time. Otherwise, this just doesn't make sense.

IMO this is completely legal whether or not Harad is involved. One of Mordor's major advantages is its better AR (which is still intact, if the earlier battle results are any indication). Gondor has the advantage of being able to use its navy, which helps to counteract Mordor's advantages. That Mordor cannot simply blitz into Gondor without leaving forces behind to defend its recent conquests is not an issue. To the contrary, I regard it as a good thing.

If you start taking away Gondor's advantages then he might as well just surrender, especially in a game with Harad being involved as well. If you don't like Gondor's navy, tell Harad's navy to come north and challenge it at sea.

[General Dragon.]

Apart from the issue can you stop being lucky with spies Ada! So far none of my spies so far did their duty, when they were needed, but you luck out the gate openings everytime damn time with one spy there and there.

[Adanedhel]

We've all seen how naval AR works in this mod. 1 ship can defeat 2 when attacking. So even if Harad builds twice as many ships as Gondor, which would take a while, Gondor could still defeat them because all he needs to do is play a defensive game. Let's say that Harad comes down with force and takes Pelargir. Gondor will just stick his army on a ship and wait it out. There's no defeating you man... How do you imagine us destroying the faction, actually? It's not enough to just take all the settlements, you need to kill off the family members. Gondor can just sit there safely and wait for help...

Btw, the battles you saw rellied heavily on the super OP cavalry units of the Nazgul. We've yet to see how the units will actually fair in a real fight.

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

I encouraged Adanedhel to open up a discussion about this issue. From the old days (if I may say so) I remember this issue was discussed as well and it was concluded as unfair if Gondor could just play hide and seek from his ships, lure at anything near Osgiliath. The way ships were allowed to use is as a transporting bridge from one side of the river to the other, which is Gondor's advantage over Mordor. With Boromir's huge movement bonus at the start, Mordor can't really come close to Osgiliath.

A fair point is being raised about Harad's possibility to make a navy, but Mordor just doesn't have any way to build ships. Even Mercenary ships aren't allowed here, which would be the only chance for Mordor to get ships.

I don't really agree with Joe's "Gondor might as well surrender as Harad is involved" argument as well. That's just the Good vs Evil aspect of the game. Patch or no patch, mistake or no mistake, Rhun could also just surrender when Dwarves and Dale team up against him.

[JWANT]

Harad and Mordor vs Gondor is a one-sided fight and to restrict use of ships for Gondor would make it even more so. Mordor shouldn't expect to be able to blitz through Gondor early in the hotseat but it would be able to if Gondor could not leave armies on their ships. Even with the armies on the ships it is not a sustainable strategy for Gondor when Mordor and Harad can still capture their other territories. Gondor uses this strategy simply to survive while Harad and Mordor can use the income from captured Gondor lands to destroy Rohan or anyone else they please.

If this use of ships is something that really bothers players then I'll have to buff Gondor considerably to make up for the fact they have to fight Mordor and Harad. The balance would be way off if left as it is. I'm also not sure how we would implement a rule like this? Has it been done before?

I'm firmly against restricting the use of ships because it doesn't break the game. Harad and Mordor can still win - it is only an obstacle not a game breaking advantage. I can think of a few alternative strategies that do not involve attacking through Osgiliath early in the hotseat so I don't want to change the rules to compensate for lack of strategic creativity ( I don't mean to offend anyone, I just don't understand the arguments against legal use of ships). Also, more rules just make the game unnecessarily complicated. The fact that move heavily impacts my strategy would be devastating for Gondor but since this is a test hotseat the outcome doesn't matter to me.

[joerock22]

As JWANT said, this is a hindrance for Mordor, nothing more. Gondor can't do serious damage with this unless Mordor makes a mistake. He can't recapture Minas Tirith from his ships and he can't capture Minas Morgul. Armies on ships don't get the general's extra MP.

Gondor and Mordor have been fighting this way ever since I joined Third Age hotseating. I see no reason to restrict Gondor now. I am also curious to know if anything like this has been done in Third Age before...restricting one specific faction from making specific moves.
I mean, we have certain rules to restrict certain moves (luring armies out of ambush, for example), but those apply equally to everyone and don't disproportionately affect one faction.


Edit - above is how I truly feel about this. But I can see that the other side feels strongly also. Here is the compromise I would propose: treat the two Osgiliaths as a single city, for purposes of Gondor's attacks from ships only. In other words, Mordor could put 1500 orcs as garrisons between the two settlements to be safe from spies. If Gondor attacks from ships using a ballista, then force Gondor to attack the more strongly garrisoned settlement first. So if Mordor wanted to garrison with an army and rely on siege defense AR, he could concentrate his army in one settlement and not have to worry about the other settlement being "stolen." These restrictions would go away if Gondor is able to recapture Minas Tirith and can legitimately invade Osgiliath from the land.

This is the most I will agree to. Any more and I think you're going much too far. Mordor shouldn't get to hold Osgiliath for free if Gondor has an army nearby.

[Adanedhel]

It's just that both Evil and Good side has such an unfavorable situation with 2 factons attacking 1. However, while Rhun get's ganked by Dwarves and Dale and has NO way of surviving when things go south, Gondor can just go on ships and survive. That's how I see things and thus see it as unfair. I ask for some extra time; I need to revise my turn and potentially redo some moves.

Edit: I think treating Osgiliaths as one settlement may help a little bit. So, if I understand this correctly, I can put 3 units (750 orcs) in each of the settlements and be safe from any spies. I can also divide them number any way I want? Say, 1-5, 2-4?

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

As JWANT said, this is a hindrance for Mordor, nothing more. Gondor can't do serious damage with this unless Mordor makes a mistake. He can't recapture Minas Tirith from his ships and he can't capture Minas Morgul. Armies on ships don't get the general's extra MP.

Gondor and Mordor have been fighting this way ever since I joined Third Age hotseating. I see no reason to restrict Gondor now. I am also curious to know if anything like this has been done in Third Age before...restricting one specific faction from making specific moves.
I mean, we have certain rules to restrict certain moves (luring armies out of ambush, for example), but those apply equally to everyone and don't disproportionately affect one faction.

I'm a bit surprised by JWANTs and your response to this. I am 100% sure we came across this issue before and we all agreed Gondor shouldn't be allowed to just keep units for free on ships.

I also really don't see why you both (JWANT, Joe) think this seriously disturbs balance, I really don't... I remember most of you (Joe, Adandedhel for example) saying that Gondor has an advantage over Mordor in a 1vs1 and will win most of the times. Personally I think it depends mostly on the players assigned to these factions but that's not the point. The fact that Gondor now fights 1vs2 is also not the point, because so do more factions on the entire GvE map.

Let me repeat my point from my previous message. Gondor has a huge advantage with Boromir's starting movement bonus in combination with ships. If Gondor just holds W. Osgiliath, Boromir can stand on the western side of the river with his 35% movement bonus and a ship to transport him and his armies to the other side prevents any Mordor stack from coming close to E. Osgiliath.
So to quote JWANT:
"so I don't want to change the rules to compensate for lack of strategic creativity "
And also from my part, no offense. But we all know how easy Gondor can defend Osgiliath against Mordor and the Gondor player just failed to do so.. In fact, Gondor can easily capture E. Osgiliath with this strategy and force Mordor back to Minas Morgul, leaving Ithilien in Gondor's control. But again, the Gondor player failed to do so.

So I do not agree that this should be allowed, not just for this HS but also for future hotseats. I feel very strongly about my point here supported by the fact we came across this before and it was not allowed, it became a sort of unofficial rule I believe.

If you still feel this should be allowed, Joe's idea is good but I think we must add that Mordor is allowed to hire Merc ships.

@JWANT, there are many more match ups in the complete TATW map, it is not possible to balance them all. If you think the patch will be played with all factions in the HS, you might indeed want to buff Gondor and Rhun a bit more. Not the strenght of the units I would say, but extra starting units/money perhaps.

It's just that both Evil and Good side has such an unfavorable situation with 2 factons attacking 1. However, while Rhun get's ganked by Dwarves and Dale and has NO way of surviving when things go south, Gondor can just go on ships and survive. That's how I see things and thus see it as unfair.

Even when things do not go south. If our best players would be playing Rhun they wouldn't be able to hold Dwarves/Dale either, I'm sure I wouldn't, unless Dwarves/Dale is being played by youngbloods.

[joerock22]

I'm a bit surprised by JWANTs and your response to this. I am 100% sure we came across this issue before and we all agreed Gondor shouldn't be allowed to just keep units for free on ships.

Sorry, but unless you can find where I was part of that discussion, I'm going to disagree completely. I have no recollection of discussing this before.

I also really don't see why you both (JWANT, Joe) think this seriously disturbs balance, I really don't... I remember most of you (Joe, Adandedhel for example) saying that Gondor has an advantage over Mordor in a 1vs1 and will win most of the times. Personally I think it depends mostly on the players assigned to these factions but that's not the point. The fact that Gondor now fights 1vs2 is also not the point, because so do more factions on the entire GvE map.

How is it not the point that it's 1v2? I do believe that if both factions are played by veteran players, Gondor has the advantage in a 1v1. That's only if Gondor can send basically all of its units to Osgiliath. Just the fact that Gondor has to keep some forces in the west to defend against Harad completely takes away that advantage.

Let me repeat my point from my previous message. Gondor has a huge advantage with Boromir's starting movement bonus in combination with ships. If Gondor just holds W. Osgiliath, Boromir can stand on the western side of the river with his 35% movement bonus and a ship to transport him and his armies to the other side prevents any Mordor stack from coming close to E. Osgiliath.
So to quote JWANT:
"so I don't want to change the rules to compensate for lack of strategic creativity "
And also from my part, no offense. But we all know how easy Gondor can defend Osgiliath against Mordor and the Gondor player just failed to do so.. In fact, Gondor can easily capture E. Osgiliath with this strategy and force Mordor back to Minas Morgul, leaving Ithilien in Gondor's control. But again, the Gondor player failed to do so.

So I do not agree that this should be allowed, not just for this HS but also for future hotseats. I feel very strongly about my point here supported by the fact we came across this before and it was not allowed, it became a sort of unofficial rule I believe.

Would have, could have, should have. Gondor lost Osgiliath and Minas Tirith due to a few mistakes, I don't quibble with that point. Now you want to punish him even more for it.

Why is it so bad to force Mordor to pause to regroup, or defend its conquests with a reasonable-sized army, or get its ally Harad to send up a fleet? With the loss of MT, Harad should be able to out-produce Gondor, particularly on the Anduin. The naval AR is not as imbalanced as Adanedhel stated.

If you still feel this should be allowed, Joe's idea is good but I think we must add that Mordor is allowed to hire Merc ships.

Nope, I'm not bending any further. There has been a rule in most hotseats where merc ships are not allowed to attack other ships. Or do you want to disregard that rule too? Above you stated that you thought your proposed rule became "unofficial." So with your merc ships you would seek to overturn an "official" rule?

@JWANT, there are many more match ups in the complete TATW map, it is not possible to balance them all. If you think the patch will be played with all factions in the HS, you might indeed want to buff Gondor and Rhun a bit more. Not the strenght of the units I would say, but extra starting units/money perhaps.

Even when things do not go south. If our best players would be playing Rhun they wouldn't be able to hold Dwarves/Dale either, I'm sure I wouldn't, unless Dwarves/Dale is being played by youngbloods.

You guys really need to stop comparing Rhun's position to Gondor's as justification for your request. It is a poor analogy. I'll apologize to KingofPoland in advance. I really didn't want to say the following (I refrained from saying it last night), but now I have to.

Remember my 1600-dwarf army marching on Kugavod? That was the most I could afford to send without going bankrupt. Rhun had an army of the same size. If he had committed a few more troops and stayed out of my attack range, then he could have held me off easily on this patch AR. Neither should have been difficult for one of the best economies in the game. And he still would have had plenty of troops left to confront Dale, which really hasn't even pressured him yet.

Please don't argue that Rhun is losing because of anything other than his own mistakes, because it's just flat out wrong. It has little to do with game balance. With an economy like that and patch AR, Rhun should have been able to hold us off for quite some time.

Let us not forget that you are the ones seeking a major change. I can't believe you didn't expect any push back.

[Adanedhel]

New save: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...jUtRzNieXo0Rmc

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

OotMM

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

[JWANT]

I don't have any memory of a previous rule either. I remember 1v1 hotseats not allowing ships but otherwise I don't remember any restrictions to their use.

If anyone objects to the proposed rule regarding Osgiliath's garrison treatment for spies as per Joe please say so:

treat the two Osgiliaths as a single city, for purposes of Gondor's attacks from ships only. In other words, Mordor could put 1500 orcs as garrisons between the two settlements to be safe from spies. If Gondor attacks from ships using a ballista, then force Gondor to attack the more strongly garrisoned settlement first. So if Mordor wanted to garrison with an army and rely on siege defense AR, he could concentrate his army in one settlement and not have to worry about the other settlement being "stolen." These restrictions would go away if Gondor is able to recapture Minas Tirith and can legitimately invade Osgiliath from the land.

I think this is a fair compromise. It limits the damage that Gondor can do by sitting on ships but still makes Mordor accountable for defending their lands. It is also reasonably simple and not open to interpretation.

There is no need for Mordor to recruit mercenary ships because Harad can produce a navy. Harad is not threatened by enemies nearly as much as Gondor so they should have no problem building a superior navy. I have never seen Gondor dominate Harad's navy AND hold back Mordor at the same time beyond the first 10 or so turns.

In regards to faction balance, Gondor did not defend Osgiliath for strategic reasons ( or perhaps limitations, considering Harad is also an enemy) - not by mistake. Losing Minas Tirith was a mistake but the result of a failed gamble anyways. My goal with balance isn't to make Gondor = Mordor & Harad since that would ruin FFA balance. My goal is to allow a reasonably well-played Gondor to survive past 20 turns in a Good vs Evil hotseat where Mordor and Harad can rush them before they have a chance to defend themselves. The same logic applies to Rhun who may or may not need changes to better balance their fight against Dale and the Dwarves. Otherwise who would ever want to play these factions? I'm looking to promote playability above all else.

[Adanedhel]

Bump

[TheBlackWolf]

Sorry, got exams at the moment...will finish tomorrow and so can play then