JWANTS BALANCE PATCH 0.21 VET HOTSEAT 1

[JWANT]

I should be able to get these turns done tonight

[JWANT]

Men played, no battles, but Gondor did capture undefended Henneth Anuin

Dwarves are up!

http://www.mediafire.com/download/bx...Dwarves_13.sav

[joerock22]

Vacant Mattaram and Burh Ermanarikis are captured.

Elves:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...ew?usp=sharing

[General Dragon.]

Mordor is up!
https://www.sendspace.com/file/9setwv


We destroyed an orc war band, which was defeated last time:

[Adanedhel]

Dol Guldur taken back.

Isengard: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...WdTaTBBbnlQUXM
Battle: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...3VkYURPbVZ4cDg

[General Dragon.]

Now that is bs goddammit!!
Atleast my test had its results, but still. In Action of the Anduin with Rhun, while having 3 almost full stacks against a half stacked orc defenders in Dol Guldur I barely managed to get a clear victory. Compared that to this I don't know, either the elves are nerfed that much or I don't know.

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

As in most hotseats Saruman has been biding his time. Only very recently he felt his time had come. And indeed it has, Isengard is unleashed!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Isengard:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

OoG:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

Harad up
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

[Adanedhel]

Forgot to mention that I defeated a Gondor general lurking in the forest near W. Osgiliath.

Now that is bs goddammit!!
Atleast my test had its results, but still. In Action of the Anduin with Rhun, while having 3 almost full stacks against a half stacked orc defenders in Dol Guldur I barely managed to get a clear victory. Compared that to this I don't know, either the elves are nerfed that much or I don't know.

You got it right last turn, Dragon. No matter how many times I reloaded, I couldn't get any positive result with my orcs, which I believe would be possible in the original version of TA, since I had more units than you. That proves that the Elves were actually buffed. The reason I won here was because I brought back my Nazgul, who is very strong. I didn't even need my regular units; I attacked with the Nazgul and general unit alone.

[General Dragon.]

That makes it even more stupid. You only using generals to capture a fortress? If you combine all of them that would be logical, but this? I have the numbers, multiple walls with archers and I get defeated by a nazgul general on horse and an orc general.
Also I am sorry, but I didn't realized by the numbers, that you didn't used your regular orc units. Indeed then it is a buff and I withdraw my conclusion.
But now the nazgul is bs.

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

That makes it even more stupid. You only using generals to capture a fortress? If you combine all of them that would be logical, but this? I have the numbers, multiple walls with archers and I get defeated by a nazgul general on horse and an orc general.
Also I am sorry, but I didn't realized by the numbers, that you didn't used your regular orc units. Indeed then it is a buff and I withdraw my conclusion.
But now the nazgul is bs.

Well that is what the patch is for. We try to see if things need to be changed and if this is better than the original version. I'm not sure if Nazgul BG was improved by JWANT, but I like his idea very much to give cavalry and archery a bigger role in the game. Honestly, when I saw your HE forces in the OotMM mountains I was pretty shocked to see the stats on your cavalry! So high! I'm not sure how that works out in AR, but Elves were definitely buffed in this patch.

I think in most Good vs Evil hotseats we have had so far, evil tends to win it most of the times (obviously depends on the players in each team), but this patch definitely made it a much harder job for evil to get things done.

Aside from balancing issues this mod still has, there is one big thing I would change. JWANT increased costs and upkeep for several units and it frustrates me endlessly when I'm playing all evil factions. Isengard, OotMM and OoG. They can have so few armies before you go bankrupt, it is not a lot of fun to play. (Not JWANT's mistake, he did try to balance plain and elite units with good reason, but unfortunately it lowered the number of armies you can have compared to the original TATW, which already doesn't allow a lot of units). But to make TATW much more interesting, I would actually try to find a way where unit upkeep would be far lower. Instead of having just 1 stack of an army which means there isn't much you can do in a game, I would prefer that factions can have like 3-4 stacks. For example, take ALL current upkeep costs from this patch and divide them by 3. This would allow for much more armies in the game and hence so much more strategizing!

[JWANT]

Well that is what the patch is for. We try to see if things need to be changed and if this is better than the original version. I'm not sure if Nazgul BG was improved by JWANT, but I like his idea very much to give cavalry and archery a bigger role in the game. Honestly, when I saw your HE forces in the OotMM mountains I was pretty shocked to see the stats on your cavalry! So high! I'm not sure how that works out in AR, but Elves were definitely buffed in this patch.

I think in most Good vs Evil hotseats we have had so far, evil tends to win it most of the times (obviously depends on the players in each team), but this patch definitely made it a much harder job for evil to get things done.

Aside from balancing issues this mod still has, there is one big thing I would change. JWANT increased costs and upkeep for several units and it frustrates me endlessly when I'm playing all evil factions. Isengard, OotMM and OoG. They can have so few armies before you go bankrupt, it is not a lot of fun to play. (Not JWANT's mistake, he did try to balance plain and elite units with good reason, but unfortunately it lowered the number of armies you can have compared to the original TATW, which already doesn't allow a lot of units). But to make TATW much more interesting, I would actually try to find a way where unit upkeep would be far lower. Instead of having just 1 stack of an army which means there isn't much you can do in a game, I would prefer that factions can have like 3-4 stacks. For example, take ALL current upkeep costs from this patch and divide them by 3. This would allow for much more armies in the game and hence so much more strategizing!

Chieftain raises a good point here. The balance isn't right yet so don't be bothered by a loss. My intention is to test AR, not deliver my best hotseat playing effort (I'm sorry allies, I have not played well ) . For that reason I am trying encourage as many battles as possible. For example, I tried to test whether Gondor could rush Umbar and still hold against attacks. I also realized that Rohan is too strong vs Isengard and moved some forces away to allow Isengard to actually do something in this hotseat.

I have learned that Isengard needs some help with recruitment/economy. Rohan has better income, more settlements for recuiting elite units, and I was able to field 2 stacks at about the same time Isengard had only 1 split between Isengard and Duneard. One way to fix this is to provide Isengard a stronger starting army and allow them to capture 2-3 Rohan territories early and this may effectively solve the issue of balancing economies of Isengard and Rohan. A further look into Isengard unit upkeep and recruitment buildings will be done as well. Rhun needs some help too since I had hoped they could put up a good fight against Dale and Dwarves even if they lose an early battle.

I'm content with Elf AR balance as it is - that loss to the Nazgul is a Nazgul balance problem.

Elite heavy cavalry units (Nazgul body guards, Swan Knights with Imrahil) are too strong still. They were nerfed since 0.20 but not enough. I'll make some changes for the next version.

Upkeep costs were adjusted to be a % of actual unit cost, which is based on unit stats (I have a calculation in a spreadsheet but don't remember it exactly). Lower upkeep costs would allow larger armies and I agree that would be a good thing. The more armies the better! This will be an easy fix but will require some time to change all of the unit entries.

All feedback is valuable feedback so keep it coming!

[KingofPoland]

Realised I didn't post this, I'm really sorry for the delay

Gondor https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6H...ew?usp=sharing

[General Dragon.]

I know this is a test in the end, that is why I made my test also. I could have left with Legolas in the previous turn, but I wanted to see, how will the AR holds up. I could have played better aswell when I lost my westerns holds, but needed to test things out.
I have to say the Elven AR seems good, however playing against the starting rebels without manual battles are pretty hard, especially for the Silvan Elves.
Also I have some other things I will say when the hotseats ends I noticed to make my final points about the new elves.

[JWANT]

I know this is a test in the end, that is why I made my test also. I could have left with Legolas in the previous turn, but I wanted to see, how will the AR holds up. I could have played better aswell when I lost my westerns holds, but needed to test things out.
I have to say the Elven AR seems good, however playing against the starting rebels without manual battles are pretty hard, especially for the Silvan Elves.
Also I have some other things I will say when the hotseats ends I noticed to make my final points about the new elves.

Thanks for the feedback Dragon.

If you could provide more details about the difficulty against the rebels, that would interest me. I had hoped the improved Elven AR would make rebels easier to fight so that they (and other factions) would not need to rely on fighting the battles manually. I don't think it would be fair to make it as easy of a fight as the manual battles are (Elven archers are really overpowered!) but I want all factions to have about the same challenge fighting rebels.

Given the stat changes I have made to balance AR, manually fighting battles wouldn't be fair. Archers are have even better stats now, plus cavalry units are much more powerful and would simply walk over rebels. Unfortunately, the AR calculation is not nearly as realistic as manually fighting the battles for which TATW was initially balanced for.

[JWANT]

The world of Men limps along.

Dwarves!
http://www.mediafire.com/download/t1...Dwarves_14.sav

[General Dragon.]

Well from what I have seen, mostly the Silvan Elves suffer from, fighting against rebel settlements in AR. I mean they lose as much troops against regular factions. Even the one walless vilage above Lórien took from me atleast 200 elven soldiers, if I remember correctly and this is the case with the rest of the Mirkwood and the settlements towards the Misty Mountains. Silvan elves in Mirkwood starts with not too much units and while this is a big information for my enemies, but I will say it, as this is a test, but I can't capture that fast with Silvan elves. We are in turn 14, and I still don't have like 4 more rebel settlements under me. Two in the Mirkwoods and two alongside the river Anduin. Though I have to admit Adanedhel's army from Dol Guldur also made things more harder for me. While there are plenty more recruit option in the first turns, but Mirkwood still suffers, from not having that much. I mean I am getting good amount of money but can't spend it, as building are still built and no unit left in recruitment pool right now.

Also this kinda applies to the High Elves aswell, but there are not that much rebel settlements to pose a problem in their western hold, also you have a lot of starting unit there. Imladris has good enough recruitment, that pretty much you can almost always recruit something for a long time. I think having this much option help Imladris to be a good place to hold on. You can now field two almost half stack armies there, which improves the options for taking some cities in the Misty Mountains.

[JWANT]

Well from what I have seen, mostly the Silvan Elves suffer from, fighting against rebel settlements in AR. I mean they lose as much troops against regular factions. Even the one walless vilage above Lórien took from me atleast 200 elven soldiers, if I remember correctly and this is the case with the rest of the Mirkwood and the settlements towards the Misty Mountains. Silvan elves in Mirkwood starts with not too much units and while this is a big information for my enemies, but I will say it, as this is a test, but I can't capture that fast with Silvan elves. We are in turn 14, and I still don't have like 4 more rebel settlements under me. Two in the Mirkwoods and two alongside the river Anduin. Though I have to admit Adanedhel's army from Dol Guldur also made things more harder for me. While there are plenty more recruit option in the first turns, but Mirkwood still suffers, from not having that much. I mean I am getting good amount of money but can't spend it, as building are still built and no unit left in recruitment pool right now. Also this kinda applies to the High Elves aswell, but there are not that much rebel settlements to pose a problem in their western hold, also you have a lot of starting unit there. Imladris has good enough recruitment, that pretty much you can almost always recruit something for a long time. I think having this much option help Imladris to be a good place to hold on. You can now field two almost half stack armies there, which improves the options for taking some cities in the Misty Mountains.

Sounds like the issue with SE isn't the casualties against rebels - it is simply not having enough units to recruit or begin the hotseat with. I'll take a look at adding some units to their armies in Mirkwood as long as it doesn't make them too powerful against OotMM and Mordor's Dol Guldur forces. Recruitment for the elves is slow, even with the top-tier barracks allowing them to recruit many units. To be able to defend Imladris was my intention, so I am glad to see that is possible. Imladris is usually conquered early in vanilla TATW but i find that hotseats with more fronts to fight on are more interesting. Of course, a determined OotMM player should be able to capture Imladris but at the expense of fighting SE and/or the Dwarves.

[joerock22]

Playing tomorrow, I apologize for the delay.

Edit - Oibmari captured with the help of a spy, some hundreds more easterlings slain in the process.

Elves:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...ew?usp=sharing

Screenshot:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...ew?usp=sharing

[General Dragon.]

Mordor is up!
https://www.sendspace.com/file/0iiovc

[Adanedhel]

Ethring and Calembel captured.

Isengard: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...C1rOTJXTzJlVkU