Discussion for GoT Restart (Kingdom of the Reach)

[Lucius Malfoy]

Alright so we gotta a lot to discuss before this roleplay can really take off from where it currently is now. We need to reassess the rules and see if they are adequate enough for this restart and if any tweaks need to be made. I already did Poach's suggestions which were met with a majority approval from the community. I will post what was suggested by Poach and thus what was changed below:

A further set of ideas for simplifications:

- Death rolls will start at 60 instead of 50 with the chances starting at 6/20 (eg same chances as before, just no rolls before 60)
- Ditch asset loss rolls for merchants, it's largely a failed mechanic.
- Ditch winter/summer rolls for the same reason.
- Dump the entire religious character system, it's almost never used and even when it is player preachers have never had a major impact on the game.
- Ditch the "roll for your kids every year" system.
- A single birth table instead of the 6 rolls you currently have to do.

Birth Rolls

d100 roll. 1-2, Mother and child die 3-4, Child dies 5-6, Mother dies, girl is born 7-8, Mother dies, boy is born 9-11, Birth complication: mother barren (child dies) 12-15, Birth complication: mother barren (child lives) 16-20, Birth complication: child is disabled (may only have 1 trait point every 10 years) (this may be RP'd however the player sees fit: withered limbs, mentally slow, dwarfism, whatever) 21-50, A healthy girl is born 60, A gifted girl is born (double trait points, players may request Warg or Greenseer if they have an RP story plan) 61-99, A healthy boy is born 100, A gifted boy is born (double trait points, players may request Warg or Greenseer if they have an RP story plan)

This replaces the old table, which had nested rolls inside nested rolls inside nested rolls, with a single table covering pretty much everything the old tables covered and gives players a little more choice when it comes to certain outcomes.

Please make further suggestions if tweaks need to be made.

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I know Xion is currently doing a rework of the HLs and who rules where. This gonna be a lot different from our usual setting for various reasons such as Manderlys are currently nobility of the Reach and not of the North. Another change is the Fossoway's split between the Reds and Greens around 209 AC. I, for one, am for just not changing that all and keeping it the way it is with Fossoways of Cider Hall and New Barrel as with the current canon. We would have to throw in a new house, otherwise, if we decide to change the split. Another note to make, Footlys do not rule at this time over Tumbleton. Xion has the proper house written so I will that be posted when Xion is ready.

So we got some territorial and house discussions to do.

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Third, a discussion on the starting conditions of this restart. The basic background is that Garth Greybeard has died at the hands of a Dornish invasion. The Reach is reeling from a recent incursion from the Stormlands, Westerlands and Dorne as well as the incompetent rule of Garth X. Highgarden is a smoldering ruin and the throne of House Gardener was cut to pieces. Mern Gardener is the last of the male bloodline and is a cousin of Garth, who had but two daughters. They both married into House Peake and Manderly who now seek dominance over the Reach. This leaves three major claimants for the Reach; Mern, Peake and Manderly. We need Peake, Manderly, Mern and Tyrells covered as the major players of this restart. The rest can be handled over time and at a later time.

I will go ahead and list those who showed interest.

Mern player: Oznerol (100% certain)
Peake player: Skylord (100% certain), Eredin (100% certain)
Manderly player: Skylord (100% certain), Eredin (100% certain)
Tyrell player: Bastard Feudalism (100% certain), Lucius Malfoy (not 100% certain)
Greybeard's Daughters (Peake and Manderly): Vacant
-> Probably would be best if these two were roleplayed by rpers rather than NPCed by the Peake and Manderly players.

We must also discuss a couple other notes involving this restart:
1. Where shall Mern Gardener start off? Its a grey area on whether or not Tyrells rule Manderford or not. The mod says yes, but the actual lore is completely blank.
2. When should this roleplay start off at? Should it begin at the very beginning of the civil war (levies would basically be raised around day 1 and day 2 with allegiances being decided immediately afterwards or be determined through an OOC discussion) or a year before it happens (perhaps with the starting event being the funeral of Garth Greybeard) (this will give time for the camps to form and players to define the lines for the upcoming civil war)?

The lore states that it was Tyrell that championed Mern's cause and brought stability back to the Reach, but, as we know with roleplay, the actual history may be more boring that canon history. Do we want the Tyrells to be the champions of Mern as in the lore or do we want the Gardener player to determine who will be his champion and lead his cause?

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Alright so I think I pretty much covered what needed to be said in terms of the restart and what needs to be discussed.

I will also note that the moderation team is looking for vets, both old and new, to join the team! I believe a good five mods would be suffice. Also should be allow players to moderate among themselves, as tried out in Deus Vult III, with handling minor rolls such as birth requests, duels and assassinations while Local Mods act as a third party by request and handle the heavier rules such as battles and what.

Those interested in helping moderate, please state your name!

Moderators Interested
- Honors Bastion (offered)
- Vernon Roche (The Whoreson Moderator can't resist!)
- Skylord (offered)
- Jokern (offered)

If anything else needs to be discussed and brought up, please speak up!

[Pinkerton]

I wouldn't mind joining the moderation team. The more the merrier but it is true that we require an organized moderation structure.

Basically, what I propose is that there should be a couple of "senior" mods (HB, Poach and Lucius come to mind) which handle the hardest stuff and also distribute the different tasks available to the "junior" mods for them to deal with. This should avoid overburden, I think.

[The Mad Skylord]

I'd be happy to help, but I'm running for one of the 3 major powers, which would make me ineligible under HB's guidelines.

On top of that, HB and I aren't exactly renowned for getting along.

[Dirty Chai]

I don't think the Tyrells rule anything in their own right. They simply manage the royal household and demesne and the day-to-day running of Highgarden, I imagine.
They're also stated to have led at least one regency by this one point for a Gardener king who was still not of age.

[Xion]

I know Xion is currently doing a rework of the HLs and who rules where. This gonna be a lot different from our usual setting for various reasons such as Manderlys are currently nobility of the Reach and not of the North. Another change is the Fossoway's split between the Reds and Greens around 209 AC. I, for one, am for just not changing that all and keeping it the way it is with Fossoways of Cider Hall and New Barrel as with the current canon. We would have to throw in a new house, otherwise, if we decide to change the split. Another note to make, Footlys do not rule at this time over Tumbleton. Xion has the proper house written so I will that be posted when Xion is ready.

Goldengrove and Northmarch High Lordships :
As they would be currently :

Coldmoat- House Osgrey of Coldmoat, Marshal of Northmarch.
- Derring Downs - House Durwell of Derring Downs.
- Ivy Hall - House Kidwell of Ivy Hall.
- Smithyton - House Shermer of Smithyton

-Goldengrove - House Rowan of Goldengrove, High Lords of Goldengrove
- Dosk - House Conklyn of Dosk.-
- Standfast - House Webber, Knights of Standfast

Besides Derring Downs, their vassals are wrong. I'll add a screenshot below. The change would be for the vassals, besides Derring Downs for the Northmarch, being switched.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Second issue, New Barrel. We would not have to add a new house to replace the Fossoways of New Barrel. New Barrel, in the Bleeding Years start, is known as Dustonbury. It would be the seat of House Manderly and added to the High Lordship of the Mandervale.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Third issue, the High Lordship of Red Lake. Currently it has been merged with the High Lordship of the Oceanroad, ruled by House Oakheart :
Old Oak (Ocean Road) - House Oakheart of Old Oak, High Lords of Red Lake.
- Catswold - House Stackhouse of Catswold.
- Redwater Keep (Red Lake) - House Crane of Redwater Keep.
- Redding - House Redding of Redding.

But as the image for the Northern Reach in the rules thread shows, the two are separate and I couldn't find any evidence of Oakheart rule over the Red Lake..so I suggest splitting off the Red Lake as it's own High Lordship, ruled by House Crane of Redwater Keep.

As for Tumbleton, the proper house is House Strickland, who would be exiled after supporting Blackfyre and replaced with Footly. I'll post an updated list shortly.

[Honors Bastion]

Third issue, the High Lordship of Red Lake. Currently it has been merged with the High Lordship of the Oceanroad, ruled by House Oakheart :
Old Oak (Ocean Road) - House Oakheart of Old Oak, High Lords of Red Lake.
- Catswold - House Stackhouse of Catswold.
- Redwater Keep (Red Lake) - House Crane of Redwater Keep.
- Redding - House Redding of Redding.

But as the image for the Northern Reach in the rules thread shows, the two are separate and I couldn't find any evidence of Oakheart rule over the Red Lake..so I suggest splitting off the Red Lake as it's own High Lordship, ruled by House Crane of Redwater Keep.

The combining of Old Oak and Red Lake was intentionally done by Poach and myself as a balancing issue. Having two tiny, one vassal under them High Lordships was utterly pointless and ultimately unbalanced compared to the HLs in the rest of the Reach. Since it was highly unlikely at the time for us to have enough players to fill even half of the Reach HLs, we figured combining them for balance's sake did not hurt anyone so you might want to take that into consideration.

=================

As for the Goldengrove/Northmarch split, that too were combined in terms of balance similar to the Old Oak/Red Lake situation with the added the factor. Goldengrove was meant to be the main counter to Hightower power in the Reach. For this setting, splitting them up would be both lore accurate and kind of necessary to have enough HL houses.

I have no comment on the Fossoway situation as that's an easy enough fix.

[Xion]

The combining of Old Oak and Red Lake was intentionally done by Poach and myself as a balancing issue. Having two tiny, one vassal under them High Lordships was utterly pointless and ultimately unbalanced compared to the HLs in the rest of the Reach. Since it was highly unlikely at the time for us to have enough players to fill even half of the Reach HLs, we figured combining them for balance's sake did not hurt anyone so you might want to take that into consideration.
.

After thinking about it, you're right about having two single vassal High Lords in the Reach. I've changed them back to being one High Lordship with Old Oak as the High Lord's seat...besides, there's nothing stopping someone who plays House Crane through good rp attempting to gain independence from Oakheart to be High Lord of the Red Lake in theory.

[Oznerol]

Tyrells are stewarts, chancellors, chamberlains... courtly offices. They shouldn't start landed. I thought about Mern Gardener having a Florent mother and thus he could start at Brighwater Keep, with his relatives. If not possible, I guess we could say that his grandfather (Garth Greybeard's great-grand-uncle) was granted one of these non-hereditary provinces or a castle somewhere as a personal residence.
We should start just at the very beginning of the war; pre-war events haven't been successful in the past, precisely. They tend to drag along and slow activity.

[The Mad Skylord]

Oz is right, we should start with the war.

[Lucius Malfoy]

Well involving the Tyrells, we don't know who rules Manderford before them (according to the mod), save House Gardener. So we could say that Gwayne V gave Manderford or some temporary residence, as Oz suggested, to Ser Alester Tyrell and the Tyrells have lived there since. With Highgarden a smoldering ruin due to the Dornish invasion, I don't see Tyrells being anywhere else if they didn't have land of their own.

[Dirty Chai]

With Highgarden a smoldering ruin due to the Dornish invasion, I don't see Tyrells being anywhere else if they didn't have land of their own.

Honestly the Tyrells probably spent a good bit during the beginning of the civil war (the lore says it raged for the better part of a decade) just looking at the damage at Highgarden and trying to see about fixing it, until at some point Osmund got sick of all the BS going on between Peake and Manderly, and got involved politically.

[Oznerol]

I made a mess with those Gardeners' names. Post edited.

[Adamat]

I can be a mod and play something minor, or I can be one of the princesses. Technically I can do both too but dunno if that'll work out. I do have tons of free time though.

[Oznerol]

I think we could make something interesting with Garth's daughters, let's them not only be minor NPC characters, but prominent ones, with a voice on their own and as ambitious as their husbands should be. I thought we could make her daughters of Garth by two different marriages (like Garth tried several times to sire a male heir, but failed, kinda like Henry VIII without an Edward VI), that would justify why they seemingly didn't oppose the plans and machinations of both their husbands. Maybe they even hate/distrust each other as fiercely as Mary I and Elisabeth I did. That would create interesting struggles, grudges and exciting plots in this game.



Something like this, but with all names filled, of course. An ambitious mother-in-law to one of the claimants could also be a fine addition to spice things up as well.

[Gandalfus]

So is there any timeline of the later half of Garth's reign? The civil war did start when he was still alive, after all, but he was just too senile to stop it.

[Dirty Chai]

No but it was probably only a year or so before the neighboring kingdoms took advantage of the war/infighting of Manderly/Peake (and I assume other lords?), culminating in the Dornish sack that killed Greybeard. That would be a good point to start, no?

[Gandalfus]

Indeed it would.

[Lucius Malfoy]

Well that's why I was thinking the starting event would be the funeral of Garth Greybeard. But we could do the sacking of Highgarden as the starting point and go from there. That means the forces of each house would have already been raised to defend the Kingdom of the Reach. The Reach would be in shambles due to the loss of Garth X and his incompetent rule followed by the succession being not so clear at all; a male cousin and two legitimate daughters, married to two lords who have been scheming and plotting much of Greybeard's reign (it seems).

I know that the only other main location under attack during that war was Oldtown where a siege ensued by one of the Dornish Kings (I think this is before the time of Nymeria, the arrival of the Rhoynar and the unification of Dorne if the lore mentions two Dornish Kings). And it seems like the invasions by the Westerlands and Stormlands were not resolved; so there may be a lot more going on than the Reach reeling from a massive Dornish incursion and a civil war among a few claimants.

[Xion]

The setting is before the Unification of Dorne..as it appears Greydon Gardener was King of the Reach at that time, as he attempted to invade Dorne but was defeated by Nymeria.
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Also, here is my updated list. Still working on it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Highgarden - House Gardener of Highgarden, King of the Reach, King of Flowers & Rivers, Sword of the Warrior & Scythe of the Stranger, Hand of the Faith, Reaper of the Greatest Bounty, Steward of the Highest Garden, Source of the Mander, Fount of Honor, High Marshal of the South, Grandmaster of the Order of the Green Hand
- Bardshome - A special non-hereditary title granted by House Gardener. Bearer titled "Master of Horse.
- Manderford
- Westbrook - House Westbrook of Westbrook.
- Smallwood - House Oldflowers of Smallwood.

Oldtown - House Hightower of Oldtown, High Lords of The Honeywine.
- Blackcrown - House Bulwer of Blackcrown.
- Bandalon - House Blackbar of Bandalon.
- Honeyholt - House Beesbury of Honeyholt.
- Torrentspeak - A special non-hereditary title granted by House Gardener. Bearer titled "Warden of Torrent Pass." Fealty sworn directly to Highgarden.
- Uplands - House Mullendore of Uplands.
- Three Towers - House Costayne of Three Towers.
- Sunhouse - House Cuy of Sunhouse.

Brightwater Keep - House Florent of Brightwater Keep, High Lords of Lower Mander.
- Norcross - House Norcross of Norcross.
- Dunnsbridge - House Dunn of Dunnsbridge.

Horn Hill (Westmarch) - House Tarly of Horn Hill, High Lords of Westmarch.
- Middlebury - House Middlebury of Middlebury.
- Fawn Crag - House Bushy of Fawn Crag.
- Hunt Hills - House Hunt of Hunt Hills.
- Sommerset - House Cockshaw of Sommerset.
- Darkdell - House Vyrwell of Darkdell.

Oakenshield(Shield Isles) - House Hewett of Oakenshield, High Lords of The Shield Isles.
- Greenshield - House Chester of Greenshield.
- Greyshield - House Grimm of Greyshield
- Southshield - House Serry of Southshield.

Old Oak (Ocean Road) - House Oakheart of Old Oak, High Lords of the Oceanroad and Red Lake
- Catswold - House Stackhouse of Catswold.
-Redwater Keep (Red Lake) - House Crane of Redwater Keep
- Redding - House Redding of Redding.

Coldmoat- House Osgrey of Coldmoat, Marshal of Northmarch.
- Derring Downs - House Durwell of Derring Downs.
- Dosk - House Conklyn of Dosk.
- Standfast - House Webber, Knights of Standfast

-Goldengrove - House Rowan of Goldengrove, High Lords of Goldengrove
- Smithyton - House Shermer of Smithyton
- Ivy Hall - House Kidwell of Ivy Hall.

Starpike - House Peake of Starpike, High Lords of The Cockleswhent
-Ashford (Cockleswhent) - House Ashford of Ashford
- Yelshire - House Yelshire of Yelshire.

Grassy Vale (Blueburn) - House Meadows of Grassy Vale, High Lords of Blueburn.
- Appleton - House Appleton of Appleton.
- Hastwyck - House Hastwyck of Hastwyck.

Longtable - House Merryweather of Longtable, High Lords of The Rose Road
- Roseford (Rose Road) - House Varner of Roseford.
- Bitterbridge - House Caswell of Bitterbridge.
- Leygood Keep - House Leygood of Leygood Keep.

The Ring - House Roxton of The Ring, High Lords of Northreach.
- Wythers - House Wythers of Wythers.
- Alden Keep - House Ambrose of Alden Keep.

Dustonbury (New Barrel)- House Manderly of Dustonbury, High Lords of Mandervale
- Cider Hall - House Fossoway of Cider Hall.
- Inchfield - House Inchfield of Inchfield.
- Holyhall - House Graceford of Holyhall.

Tumbleton - House Strickland of Tumbleton, High Lords of the Upper Mander
- Harpshire - House Orme of Harpshire.
- Hammerhall - House Cordwayner of Hammerhall.

The Arbor - House Redwyne of The Arbor, High Lords of The Southern Isles.
- Mermaid's Palace - House Goldwyne of The Mermaid's Palace.
- Stonecrab Cay - House Lowther of Stonecrab Cay.

[Oznerol]

No but it was probably only a year or so before the neighboring kingdoms took advantage of the war/infighting of Manderly/Peake (and I assume other lords?), culminating in the Dornish sack that killed Greybeard. That would be a good point to start, no?

Well that's why I was thinking the starting event would be the funeral of Garth Greybeard. But we could do the sacking of Highgarden as the starting point and go from there. That means the forces of each house would have already been raised to defend the Kingdom of the Reach. The Reach would be in shambles due to the loss of Garth X and his incompetent rule followed by the succession being not so clear at all; a male cousin and two legitimate daughters, married to two lords who have been scheming and plotting much of Greybeard's reign (it seems).

I know that the only other main location under attack during that war was Oldtown where a siege ensued by one of the Dornish Kings (I think this is before the time of Nymeria, the arrival of the Rhoynar and the unification of Dorne if the lore mentions two Dornish Kings). And it seems like the invasions by the Westerlands and Stormlands were not resolved; so there may be a lot more going on than the Reach reeling from a massive Dornish incursion and a civil war among a few claimants.

Sometime after the sack is the fitting point to start, the claimants already started a war against each other, the realm is divided, headless and the capital ransacked. But we don't need a funeral or something like that, I think. Also, some of the Northern and Eastern provinces could be ocuppied by Westerlanders and Stormlanders, who seized the opportunity to invade the Reach, as LM said. Including the raiding parties and armies of the Dornish in the South.