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Thread: Late-game-challenge discussion

  1. #1

    Default Late-game-challenge discussion

    In this specific thread I would like to know your opinion on the challenge in the mid- to late game (lets say 110+ turns). Let me say my experience. I play as Arverni (Galic Confederation for now) and I am about 120th turn right now. There is one thing I noticed few days ago, and that is quite huge negative points in diplomacy when you reach higher levels of imperium. It almost looked like a boring game, I got 3 millitary allies (+4 client states), enough money and great income, conquered most of western and middle Europe, Spain and entire Italy and expanding to Greece. But suddenly I noticed that almost rest of the world hates me, because of -50 in diplomacy for level 6 imperium. Factions started cancelling their non-aggression packs, trade agreements and it appears that greaaaaaat war (me+my allies vs. eastern world dominated by Seleucids) lays in the near future My income got hampered and although I have powerfull armies and allies that loves me, my potential enemies (and they are great in numbers) got load of full stacks armies on their territory. It is going to be real mess. I started this thread because of hearing people lamenting on the low difficulty in late time period of their campaigns, but as I said, my experience is somehow different. Just for the clarification, I play on hard/very hard difficulty, so maybe on normal diff. there are smaller negative effects. Let me know your experiences please.
    Last edited by philler; November 26, 2015 at 05:04 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Yeah, on harder difficulties there are higher diplomatic penalties. If you play on normal, the late game usually is very easy. Factions won't want to declare war on you once you get too powerful.

  3. #3
    Libertus
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    I play on very hard and what I do in the end mid/late game is liberating a few factions (Boii who will always join you in fighting Lugoz, they are also celtic culture and should be easier for you, i do it with roman) who can defend your borders to german territory and take out enemies for you.

    The other factions will cancel their trade agreements and non agression pacts, but for some reason they fail to declare war because you are stronger then them. Just make sure when you reach seleucids, you have enough armies/fleets in the area and you should be able to hold them back.

    As the averni, you can maybe move into Africa after you took Greece/Macedon. Fight defensively in the city just on the other side of the small crossing to the black sea (it's a walled city and easy to defend). The African tribes should be easy with your averni cores and iberian/italian aor troops

  4. #4

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ptagi View Post
    As the averni, you can maybe move into Africa after you took Greece/Macedon. Fight defensively in the city just on the other side of the small crossing to the black sea (it's a walled city and easy to defend). The African tribes should be easy with your averni cores and iberian/italian aor troops
    Well, Carthage and Maesyli are my Client states (they unintentionally declared war on me by attacking my defensive ally - Massalia... but after I totally wiped out their yet undefeated elite army with my level 8 "Chief Confederation army" in Spain, they more than willingly accepted peace treaty, became my client states and payed huge amount of money ). From this point of view, I would rather take the risk and conquer last Roman settlements in Greece (I pushed them from Italy to Greece, they always conquer cities of their another enemy while they are on the run before me. But now they are in Sparta thus have no place to run/hide). So, I am going to rage a war in the Middle East and Asia, spreading the celtic culture, raze their cities and rape their women the only thing I am worried about is their millitary power... very scary.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Yeah I can confirm that in normal/normal difficulty the late game gets relatively smooth since your large empire can smother any resistance with ease and with a few full stacks roaming around smashing apart the smaller armies. In my experiences with very hard/very hard or even legendary, the enemy factions become massive alliance conglomerates coming to smash your face in. I remember my late game Iceni campaign the Galatians, Bosporians, Egyptians + a bunch of other factions were military allies and the moment I came in range of me they sent all their armies at me and it became a crapfest of endless attempts to ambush them and slow them down with agents while I slowly took apart their armies. Sparta was the same, the lategame was just endless sprawls of angry barbarian alliances warring me. However, my experience with Carthage was different. The midgame after I conquered half of Italy was the hardest part, since the Romans got all their bonuses and tried desperately to shove me back with their larger military and with their allies. After that brief struggle I united all of Europe with relative ease, maybe since I got extremely elite armies of Numidian cav and elephants etc.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    It does seem like the AI decision to go to war is based too much on "global" power and not quite enough on "local" power or opportunism. It is very true that if you have a sprawling empire, the AI will not declare war because you are so much more powerful than they are, even if all your armies are stationed halfway across the map. I am also not sure the AI gives enough weight to how many other factions you are at war with... e.g. opportunism in many little factions piling on a larger faction at the same time.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    It would be good for late-game challenge if larger empires (or at least larger player empires) faced increasing internal threats... e.g. generals defecting, cultural revolts, etc. I think this would have to be script/event driven.

    For example, you could have an event like... "Increasing unrest among Gallic subjects..." This could trigger either:
    1) -30 PO for 10 turns in regions with Gallic local traditions... (which will spawn rebels unless quickly dealt with)
    2) Just spawn rebels (enough to overcome garrisons and not be easily defeated by allies) in Gallic areas
    3) Just flip a few Gallic cities to rebel faction or dead Gallic faction

    Basically, this would hamper the player's ability to continue expanding, because they would be forced to garrison troops throughout the empire (as happened in real life) to deal with internal threats. (No more steamrolling enemies with 6 concentrated armies.)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    I remember in older Total War titles I would not expand for the fifty first turn in order for the A.I. to develop it's cities and armies to double their strength. It lead to a much more enjoyable campaign when you're fighting against a well developed empire, rather than a kingdom that just sprung out from the birth canal. Have anyone tried to do the same in Rome 2?

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Maybe it's just me, but I find myself losing interest in late-game. It's too easy and you're just mopping up with minimal resistance. Even if you do meet resistance you crush them quickly since you have super strong economy at that point.

    Any tips on how to avoid the late-game boredom? I generally prefer the early-mid game when I still struggle.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Total war games need coalition system from eu4 for late game challenge.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    In my current play-through as Pergamon, the Roman AI is conquering in Africa, Spain and Greece with 10+ fully manned legions like crazy. They currently have at least 25 regions after 150 turns (which is something I've never seen the Roman CAI accomplish before). I have about 19 regions but I'm currently in a stalemate with Egypt. If I don't do something about Rome soon they and their client states will steamroll me in end-game if they decide to go hostile before I've prepared or made enough allies.

    Playing on very hard.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Litharion has some ideas for 1.2 on how we may address some of these issues. Late game is always a problem in Total War because the player has consolidated enough power and money that losing is very unlikely after a certain point. We originally had higher corruption to make late game economics much harsher. However, there were quite a few complaints about that and the "gameyness" (for lack of a better word) of the way the mechanic works.

    Some ideas we are throwing around for 1.2 include diplomatic alliances that form against you if you invade an area that would historically resist invasion. In other words, lets say as Rome you invade Iberia. Some of those tribes may put aside their local disputes and band together to fight you, assuming you aren't allied with them.

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    Litharion has some ideas for 1.2 on how we may address some of these issues. Late game is always a problem in Total War because the player has consolidated enough power and money that losing is very unlikely after a certain point. We originally had higher corruption to make late game economics much harsher. However, there were quite a few complaints about that and the "gameyness" (for lack of a better word) of the way the mechanic works.

    Some ideas we are throwing around for 1.2 include diplomatic alliances that form against you if you invade an area that would historically resist invasion. In other words, lets say as Rome you invade Iberia. Some of those tribes may put aside their local disputes and band together to fight you, assuming you aren't allied with them.
    That's an excellent idea. Adding more micromanagement (like corruption) would just make it tedious instead of challenging. Enemies banding together might make it far more interesting.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    Litharion has some ideas for 1.2 on how we may address some of these issues. Late game is always a problem in Total War because the player has consolidated enough power and money that losing is very unlikely after a certain point. We originally had higher corruption to make late game economics much harsher. However, there were quite a few complaints about that and the "gameyness" (for lack of a better word) of the way the mechanic works.

    Some ideas we are throwing around for 1.2 include diplomatic alliances that form against you if you invade an area that would historically resist invasion. In other words, lets say as Rome you invade Iberia. Some of those tribes may put aside their local disputes and band together to fight you, assuming you aren't allied with them.
    That sounds great! Like Caesar's invasion in Gaul? I just hope it's not entire culture groups. I'd like to still be able to ally a few of them and have them help out.

  15. #15
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    Some of those tribes may put aside their local disputes and band together to fight you, assuming you aren't allied with them.
    Take note in the last part. Not allied with them

  16. #16
    Lord Dakier's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Non-family generals sometimes rebelling when too powerful seems decent.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    As far as I know that would be some sort of civil war mechanic, which I don't think is moddable.

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  18. #18
    Ultra123's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    To be honest Dresdens point on having areas resist you would be epic. But for some pointers for others finding it fairly easy, i personally NEVER use more then 3 field armies with whatever i have left are plonked on citys while i use generals as governors. This make a overstretched Roman empire pretty tough to defend late game as you can have men everywhere at once, and a badly planned invasion of someone could backfire because you get invaded yourself elsewhere. Give it a go!
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    Litharion has some ideas for 1.2 on how we may address some of these issues. Late game is always a problem in Total War because the player has consolidated enough power and money that losing is very unlikely after a certain point. We originally had higher corruption to make late game economics much harsher. However, there were quite a few complaints about that and the "gameyness" (for lack of a better word) of the way the mechanic works.

    Some ideas we are throwing around for 1.2 include diplomatic alliances that form against you if you invade an area that would historically resist invasion. In other words, lets say as Rome you invade Iberia. Some of those tribes may put aside their local disputes and band together to fight you, assuming you aren't allied with them.
    Wow, that would be really great, though the implementation of it must be very hard. As regards of entire game, I think that more aggressive diplomatic AI is the way to go. When I tried modes for better AI aggressivity, the factions seemed to less hesitate when it comes to rage war on you, even if you were strong global power at that time. This had more possitive effects, because factions that fought battles against you got possitive attitudes toward each other resulting in millitary allies and slightly better cooperation. I also think that cultural bonuses/maluses should be more deepened in order to be more influental when factions make decisions. I would also ask one question, although I dont know if it is moddable - I cannot help myself, but I am often remembering Shogun 2, where increased difficulty was really notable. Not just in terms of bonuses (and it seems, that bonuses/maluses is the only difference in R2), but in terms of building way more armies, better agents and so on. I must give a lot of credits to you when it comes to better quality AI armies, but it could be even better, if the factions could built more of them. Since S2 and R2 runs on the same ETW engine, I got hopes from my point of view, the way to go is more aggressive AI, bigger concetration of AI on millitary and in a nutshell, increasing a difficulty across all difficulties

  20. #20

    Default Re: Late-game-challenge discussion

    Some ideas:

    1. Regions or cultures all ally and fight back, including liberating each other if you take one of them.
    2. Any allies of that culture have a chance of switching sides at key moments (simulate double agents leading them into a trap, etc)
    3. If AIs lose too much they try to abandon outer regions and consolidate strength near their capital.
    4. Allies refuse to make a separate peace late game. No, ah, divide and conquer.
    5. Add in a bonus mod - love of liberty or something that increases stats while AI defends its home.
    6. AI is much more likely to get ambushes in their home territory late game.
    7. AI takes up very strong defensive positions (mountain passes) and such and holds them as long as they can.
    8. Lategame AI should prefer to move in groups of 2 legions, most of the time.

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