Roman Infantry Composition

[MaverickBlack]

Hey all,

Been playing through my first DeI campaign as Rome and having a blast crushing the barbarian scum with the mighty fists of my legions. I love the heavy infantry armies and usually use 8-10 heavy sword infantry, supported by various cavalry, skirmishers, spears and medium/light infantry depending on my AoR. For a substantial part of my campaign I have used the Marian Legionarii Veterani as my mainstay, with some plain Legionarii when I hit the unit cap. Is there any reason to use heavy infantry auxiliary instead? Do they fill any role better than the Legionarii or are they just more available?

Now I have hit Imperial reforms and there are Cataphract Legionaries (Legionarii Clibanariorum) and Evocata Germania legionaries, and I am wondering how they fit into my forces. The Cohors Evocata are available from the same building tree, have minimal cost differences and have mostly better stats, in addition to having Encourage. I know Honga isn't up to date but the differences are similar if not exact: Unit comparison. The Evocata Germania have guerrilla deployment which is nice but situational, and slightly higher attack stats, so I can see having a few as shock troops, but the Cataphract legionaries only have an advantage on armor. They even have less melee defense than both Evocata. When is 5 or 10 armor going to make a difference compared with higher base defense and higher attack? Are the Cataphract legionaries worth a spot in the army?

Aside from Legions, what kinds of support infantry work best? I like the flexibility of 2-3 large unit size medium swords or axes that are a little bit faster and can be used as meat shields if necessary, along with ~2 groups of heavy spears.

[Dresden]

Just one note (I am sure others have better responses), but the German veteran unit has a campaign cap of 8.

[MaverickBlack]

Just one note (I am sure others have better responses), but the German veteran unit has a campaign cap of 8.

Thanks Dresden, I didn't know that (my saved game my have tweaked out somewhat and allowed more), but I am still curious if there is any reason to use the Cataphracts over the regular Evocata, or if they are even competing for the same roster spot? How much difference does 5 armor make?

[Augustusng]

Are Evocata Germanica still available? I know there was some talk about removing that unit. I guess it's still there then. There might also be unit caps on some of those units, but I'm not sure. Most unit caps were removed, so maybe not.

EDIT: Just saw Dresden's post. Yeah, guess they still have a campaign cap.

[JCB206]

I use 5 or 10 legionaries (depending on allied content), 1 Roman cavalry, 3 Allied Cavalry, 4 sirmishers/missile troops and a baggage train.

Full Roman only army: 10 legionaries, 1 Roman Cavalry, 4 skirmishers (2 Numidian cavalry after I take them), 4 slingers.

I don't use the veteran/elite units. I usually have Allied Armies running around with all the great unit types. They usually have a general and 2 legionaries with them.

[MaverickBlack]

I use 5 or 10 legionaries (depending on allied content), 1 Roman cavalry, 3 Allied Cavalry, 4 sirmishers/missile troops and a baggage train.

I don't use the veteran/elite units. I usually have Allied Armies running around with all the great unit types. They usually have a general and 2 legionaries with them.

What other infantry do you consider worthwhile infantry for your allied armies or as allied content of your regular legions? Auxiliaries are typically awesome in the skirmishing and cavalry department, but it's hard to beat the legionaries when it comes to ground pounding goodness

[JCB206]

What other infantry do you consider worthwhile infantry for your allied armies or as allied content of your regular legions? Auxiliaries are typically awesome in the skirmishing and cavalry department, but it's hard to beat the legionaries when it comes to ground pounding goodness

Before reforms, I usually get some quality spear units to defend the wings. If they are not available, then some quality swords. If there is no quality, then levies work very well. Large in numbers and can hold for a while.

After the reforms, every province practically has a imitation legionary. Some are even better than the regular legionaries. I grab these guys up. I have more Allied units than Roman ones. Having 1 or 2 different types of allied units, brings on the immersion for me. The romans are my main line but I like recruiting allies for such things as assaulting the walls of cities. Having a lot of fun storming the walls. Key is high attack and good armor.

I build an Aux Camp in every province to make sure I don't miss any immersion.

I have an Allied Libyan Army, Allied Celtic Army (My favorite at the moment), and an Allied Latin-Greek Army and just conquered Dacia and a sliver of Germany. The Allied German army is coming soon. My 1 Roman legion (2 Gold Chevrons) has been sitting in Africa, since the fall of Carthage, roughly 15 years ago.

[Kjertesvein]

Hey all,

Been playing through my first DeI campaign as Rome and having a blast crushing the barbarian scum with the mighty fists of my legions. I love the heavy infantry armies and usually use 8-10 heavy sword infantry, supported by various cavalry, skirmishers, spears and medium/light infantry depending on my AoR. For a substantial part of my campaign I have used the Marian Legionarii Veterani as my mainstay, with some plain Legionarii when I hit the unit cap. Is there any reason to use heavy infantry auxiliary instead? Do they fill any role better than the Legionarii or are they just more available?

Regional units usually have some form of resistance to the warm and cold climate, making them tier less quickly. An exhausted unit is heavily reduced in all combat capabilities.

Now I have hit Imperial reforms and there are Cataphract Legionaries (Legionarii Clibanariorum) and Evocata Germania legionaries, and I am wondering how they fit into my forces. The Cohors Evocata are available from the same building tree, have minimal cost differences and have mostly better stats, in addition to having Encourage. I know Honga isn't up to date but the differences are similar if not exact: Unit comparison. The Evocata Germania have guerrilla deployment which is nice but situational, and slightly higher attack stats, so I can see having a few as shock troops, but the Cataphract legionaries only have an advantage on armor. They even have less melee defense than both Evocata. When is 5 or 10 armor going to make a difference compared with higher base defense and higher attack? Are the Cataphract legionaries worth a spot in the army?

Aside from Legions, what kinds of support infantry work best? I like the flexibility of 2-3 large unit size medium swords or axes that are a little bit faster and can be used as meat shields if necessary, along with ~2 groups of heavy spears.

The stats that help versus arrows is a big shield and armor. Cataphract Legionaries would be ideal versus Nomads and Eastern factions in my opinion.

Sicilian crossbowmen. Longest range and hurts like ballista.
Sarmatian Cataphracts. 89 armor and 80 charge.

Let's be honest here. In my Roman Hard campaign, once you've reached Imperial units, your biggest enemy is handling the climate and plebs, rather than military opposition.

​~Wille

[dahooscarl]

4 principes, 4 hastati, 2 triari, 2 aux phalanx spearmen, 2 peltasts, 2 equities, 4 archers/javelin men.

I've tagged about 800 hrs into Rome 2 and so far this is the most effective army comp. I've played with.



AS HH PPPP HH AS
AAAA
PE C. T G. T C. PE

This is my field battle set up. Principes in the center, with hastati and aux spears on flanks, supported by cav, peltasts and triari in the center with archers behind the battle line. This comp is extremely effective. As other factions too.

As for the immersion part, I like to name my legions from where they were created. 1st 2nd and 3rd Roman Legion, the Gallic legion, Germanic legion, Greek legion etc etc.

Also Egypt is am absolute monster.

[ptagi]

4 principes, 4 hastati, 2 triari, 2 aux phalanx spearmen, 2 peltasts, 2 equities, 4 archers/javelin men.

This is indeed a very decent setup for a legion, but it's all Roman. I use the same setup but I take only half Roman, rest is auxiliary.

2 principes, 2 socii principes, 2 hastati, 2 socii hastati, 1 triarii, 1 pedites extraordinarii, I start with 2 socii extraordinarii because they are sturdier then regular equites, but I switch them very quickly to Hippies from Magna Gracia. I tried with 2 cretan archers and 2 peltasts, but lately I use 4 cretan archers.

When I hit Marian reforms my setup is 1 first cohort, 5 regular legionnaires, 2 veteran legionnaires, 1 legionary cavalry, 2 aux cavalry (still the hippies, or the gaullic ones. The iberian cavalry is also very sturdy and can hold his ground), 4 cretan archers, 2 aux sword units (mostly batavian, but the ones from other regions are good as well), 2 aux spear units (i try to get the gaullic ones, but as the sword units, most of the other regions are decent as well).

Imperial age, I barely hit it, but when i reach it the setup stays the same as the marian, but then the upgraded version of course. Even Marian troops can hold themselves at this point against all other troops.

I refuse to use elephants in Roman legions. As Carthage you start out with a couple and if you can keep them alive, they are beast where you can get heroic victories all the time. You can even hold your ground against 4 to 1. I can remember me fighting with 15 units of Carthage and win against 3 full stack polybian Roman legions with 3-4 triarii in each.

[UsulDaNeriak]

I also establish historical armies as soon as possible, because a full roman army is too overpowered. First of all, a stack in TW is not a legion, it is an exercitus (army). The romans almost never fought with legions; it was always an exercitus. I am not that restricitive in composing my armies, because surprisingly no roman army looked the same. This is especially true for the post marian and imperial timeframe.

However there are some rough guidelines, the romans used to establish a pre-marian army.

1. About 50% socii, actually a bit more socii.
2. The heavy infrantry part of the romans is divided into hastati, principes and triarii (roughly 2:2:1). For the heavy infantry of the socii unit types are not that well known. I guess the romans took what they got from the socii (also hoplites from the south).
3. The light infantry (velites) are roughly the same amount of units like the hastati or the principes. But in some cases the romans recruited no velites at all and used socii-light infantry (anytype) also for the roman half of the army.
4. The cavalry was about about 5-7% of the army (1200 cavalry in a consular army of 4 x 4200 men infantry or more). The romans provided 1 ala of 300 men, while the socii added 900 men. In a single stack in TW you cannot do both: use less than 10% cavalry with a ratio of 1:3 romans : socii. I usually use the general as roman cavalry and 1-2 units of socii, which is a bit too much.
5. You may add non-italian allies to your army. In this case the percentage of your roman units drops even further, and it is fully situational how many allied troops the romans used, but I would not overdo with such allied units, if not in case of emergency.

So my composition usually is:
1G (1 roman cavalry)
1T, 2P, 2H romans (5 roman heavy infantry)
1T, 2P, 2H socii (5 socii heavy infantry)
2V + 2 V socii or 4 V socii (4 light infantry anytype)
2C ( 2 socii cavalry)
3 A ( 3 allied units of any type, including the baggage train or siege units)

For the post marian times, we got no clue about standards. Often a roman army had more legionaries than allies. But it could be vice versa. Amount of cavalry was about 10%, perhaps sometimes up to 15%. Usually all non-italians. For an interim period I am not hesitating to use a mix of pre-marian and post-marian armies and units. What we call the Marian reforms actually started with some measures of Scipio Africanus during his campaigns in Spain. And the last pre-marian roman army was raised around the War of the Socii 90 BC. So the Marian reforms actually lasted over 100 years.

For imperial times we got again roughly 50% romans and 50% auxilia, plus sometimes allies. So even 60-40, 40-60 or 40-40-20 is possible. Cavalry was about 5-15% in an provincial exercitus, but could be up to 20% in an campaigning army, because the romans sometimes took all nearby cavalry on a campaign (e.g. Arrians campaign against the Alans) but not all infantry. If we assume, that a stack is an exercitus with 1 legion as its core, imperial armies had not more than 1 first cohort and usually just 1 of veterans. Cataphracts were never more than 10% of the cavalry, so more than 1 unit sounds unhistorical. Praetorians were used on campaigns. But just a few and just if the leader is the emperor or his heir. For example Germanicus led multiple legions and lots of auxilia into Germania, but was accompanied by just 3-4 praetorian cohorts. You do the math.

In summary, my roman armies are very flexible and they never look the same, with usually less than 50% romans.

[dahooscarl]

"This is indeed a very decent setup for a legion, but it's all Roman. I use the same setup but I take only half Roman, rest is auxiliary."

Yes. Your correct. Except the aux spearmen are the aux hoplites you get in southern Italy. Them, hastati, peltasts(Greek aux) and archers are the interchangeable units. The core heavy infantry, spears and cav stay the same while swapping out other units to meet your current objective. Swapping archers for ballista for siege, swapping hastati for archers and spears against eastern factions, etc etc. I only use the pre marian Roman units since that's where I'm at in my campaign. Almost 70 Yeats in (280 turns) and I still haven't broken out of the peninsula. Hard difficulty is no joke.

[UsulDaNeriak]

"This is indeed a very decent setup for a legion, but it's all Roman. I use the same setup but I take only half Roman, rest is auxiliary."

All romans? What??? I am afraid, we have a different understanding about socii and auxilia. And no, it is not a setup for a legion but for an exercitus (army).

Socii are no romans until 90 BC or ingame until marian reforms. Units from Southern Italy are non roman Socii like units from Ertruria or Samnium are non roman Socii. This does not matter at all, for the composition of an historical roman army. The romans did not distinguish between Samnites and Greeks from Tarentium. They are just different socii, sometimes different in equipment and perhaps fighting style.

Allies or "auxilia" in the pre-marian times were Gauls, Illyrians, Spaniards or Greeks from Sicilia. And I often add them to my army, which then is more 40% roman, 40% socii and 20% auxilia or even more. But if you really use 50% non italians like 25%, 25%, 50% you are stressing historical accuracy. Such a huge amount of allies (not italian socii) were used very seldomly. Perhaps in Spain and Africa after the 2nd punic war.

PS: Well if I wrote above: "1T, 2P, 2H (5 socii heavy infantry)", this could mean 1 southern greek heavy spear unit and 4 sword units of any type. It just had to be from Italia aka Socii.