Terrorist attack in Paris

[tgoodenow]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0T30R520151114
"Syrian passport found near Paris' stadium bomber" Some people are aledging that this information is irrelevant because you can buy a fake passport, but it is still an interesting development.

[snuggans]

Oh just stop. We are talking about why people are doing acts like yesterday and were discussing how Wahhabism has become so influential through Saudi Arabia, you know ISIS and Al-Qaeda are proud users of the Wahhabi ideology and maybe we find it interesting why they got so big and have so much appeal?

Then you rant about Iran that has nothing to do with this thread as these terrorists have nothing to do with Iran or Shia islam, yet try to bring Iran in this debate with sources like Brookings.Edu that gets funded by Qatar to suit your narrative. And we should take your post seriously?

Can you ever stay on topic and actually discuss how Saudia Arabia is exporting its Wahhabi ideology that has destructive consequences like yesterday? I find it very sad that you are cheering for Saudi Arabia and are trying to blame Iran for everything while Iran allows other religions in its constitution and are far ahead in women rights compared to Saudi Arabia. If you want to bring Iran up then do it in a relevant note

there are baathist elements in daesh, they were the same people that took and held Saddam's hometown of Tikrit, without these saddam loyalists, daesh would not have been able to zerg half of Iraq in the manner that they did. Saddam's relatives are said to be involved in these operations as well. Assad is also baathist, who is receiving huge amount of support from Iran. shia terrorists and militants are supporting baathists in syria, but there are also baathists in daesh, and despite Assad's confrontation with daesh, Assad shares an uneasy relation with them as he buys their oil and mostly bombs non-daesh actors like FSA and al-nusra. i'll also remind you that Iran refused an extradition request from Jordan for al-Zarqawi, the person who would go on to found al-qaeda in iraq and ultimately daesh. compounded to this, iranian shia militias during the northern offensives massacred many sunni civilians which would lead to higher recruitment for daesh.

i've linked Iran with daesh 4 different ways:

1. Iran supports baathists in Syria, but daesh also contains baathist elements from Saddam's time
2. Iran released al-zarqawi instead of turning him over to Jordan
3. Iran attributed to the rise of daesh by having their shia militias waste iraqi sunnis
4. Iran's IRGC has relations with al-qaeda, which aren't daesh but daesh used to be al-qaeda

from Wikipedia:

"Several sources have claimed that ISIL prisoners were strategically released from Syrian prisons at the beginning of the Syrian Civil War in 2011.[612] The Syrian government has bought oil directly from ISIL,[613] and in March 2015 a European Union report brought to light that the Syrian government and ISIL jointly run a HESCO gas plant in Tabqa, central Syria; the facility continues to supply government-held areas, and electricity continues to be supplied to ISIL-held areas from government-run power plants.[614]

United States Secretary of State John Kerry has stated that the Syrian government has tactically avoided ISIL forces in order to weaken moderate opposition such as the Free Syrian Army (FSA),[610] as well as "even purposely ceding some territory to them [ISIL] in order to make them more of a problem so he can make the argument that he is somehow the protector against them".[615] An IHS Jane's Terrorism and Insurgency Center database analysis confirmed that only 6% of Syrian government forces attacks were targeted at ISIL from 1 Jan to 21 November 2014, while in the same period only 13% of all ISIL attacks targeted government forces.[607] The National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces has stated that the Syrian government has operatives inside ISIL,[616] as has the leadership of Ahrar ash-Sham.[617] ISIL members captured by the FSA have claimed that they were directed to commit attacks by Syrian government operatives.[618]

On 1 June 2015, the United States stated that the Syrian government was "making air-strikes in support" of an ISIL advance on Syrian opposition positions north of Aleppo.[619] The president of the Syrian National Coalition Khaled Koja accused Assad of acting "as an air force for [ISIL]",[620] with the Defense Minister of the SNC Salim Idris stating that approximately 180 Syrian government officers were serving in ISIL and coordinating the group's attacks with the Syrian Arab Army.[621]
A report on 25 June 2015 said that ISIS kept gas flowing to Assad regime-controlled power stations. Furthermore, ISIS allowed grain to pass from the Kurdish-held north-east to regime controlled areas at the cost of a 25% levy.[622]


On 28 June 2015, a source close to the Turkish National Intelligence Organization claimed an agreement was made between the Assad regime and ISIL to destroy the FSA in the country's north, continue oil sales, assassinate Zahran Alloush and surrender Tadmur and Sukhna. The sources said that a group of commanders of both sides held a meeting at a gas production plant in Hasaka's al-Shaddadi area on 28 May 2015, not to stop fighting each other, but to focus on destroying a common enemy – the Syrian rebel forces, especially the FSA.[623] Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu has blamed the rise of ISIL on the international communities inaction in regards to the Assad regime, which left a vacuum of power in which ISIL was able to grow.[624]"

i'm also going to point out that Gulf states such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE, have run more sorties on daesh than Iran or Assad has. to the best of my knowledge, Iran used F-4's to bomb daesh like once when they got too close to Iran's border. Iran's gift of planes to Assad have been used mostly on FSA or al-nusra, or civilians. while 3 gulf states keep sending their F-16's and typhoons to bomb daesh over and over. the ratio of sorties between gulf states and Iran/assad must be really lopsided in gulf state's favor



your turn now, you link daesh with saudi arabia

[Davius]

Economical, historical, political and other reasons only made it possible for Wahhabism to grow in our society. One guy moved to Syria because he was not good enough to become a professional footballer. If he didn't came into contact with a hatepreacher/Wahhabism he would just have been a depressed guy.
Wahhabism is the core and all the economic, poltical and other reasons makes it stronger (and stronger every year!). 90% of the people doesn't know what this ideology is and just blame 'Muslims' 'Islam' 'refugees'.

After writing my post I found this:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/23...hate.html?_r=0

Two fascist Stone Age cultures with Stone Age punishments. Perhaps if people were allowed to drink, look at pornography and heck, commit adultry, they have more outlets for their desperation.
I mean death for being homosexual....yet it's pevsive and not talked about. Primitive. There's a lot of blaming the West. How about these unbelievably oppressive laws? Sheesh.

[Mangalore]

...
There is no us or them. The moment you do that, they bring their suffering in the middle of your city.
It is an act of desperation. Do some empathy. Imagine your country in ruins. The only time you see west is when they are bombing your people from a comfortable jet. How would you feel?
Yesterday is how ISIS feels.

...

I do agree that this kind of tactic is an act of desperation as they could not touch any conventional military force without risking casualties as bad or worse than 10:1 against them. However I don't see where the empathy part is supposed to come from. France didn't bomb their country into ruins, rebels, ISIS and Assad did and ISIS is making a hellhole of the place. Where again does France come into that equation other than a very minor bystander? They are not even providing much of any firepower to that bombing campaign and it's not like that place wasn't already in ruins due to 5 years of civil war before the air campaign started because of ISIS invasion of Iraq.

While ISIS claimed responsibility I kind of question how much control they actually have. That's why it is so dangerous about it. Someone just takes dumb people, tells them lies to make them murder people and blow themselves up. Why would you seek any empathy for someone doing that?

It's ten steps removed from an act like Hamas blowing an Israeli disco up because there is no actual direct link.

[Enros]

Earlier in the thread I reported with a dubious source that 4 French police officers had been killed. I don't see any further of mention of that, so it may not be true. Maybe that source was wrong.

[VINC.XXIII]

France didn't bomb their country into ruins

There are always good reasons to attack France: slavery, colonialism, palestinian children, Lybia, Afghanistan, palestinian children, not enough mosques, no enough halal food, not enough kebab, palestinian children...etc

[dogukan]

Twaddle.

These are people who kill over cartoons. Who behead for symbolism. Who rape because they can. They are evil and they must be destroyed. That is how you solve this. You crush them utterly. You are right about one thing, this won't be solved by jets but by boots. The west needs to mobilize and actually put an effort to stamp out this nonsense. Our sense of moral superiority and comfortable living has made us weak, and Europe has no spine.

Buddy, I am as anti-Islam as it gets. I am perhaps more anti-Islam than many neo-nazis around west.

But there is something different here.
You are alienating the ISIS people. ISIS has tens of thousands of members and even more followers. People who look up to them.
It is obvious that Wahhabi ideology fills the gap here.

But the real problem is WHY THIS SELLS. That is what people keep ignoring.
Why is there radical Islam?
What radicalizes Muslims?

Unless we work on this issue, this attack is not going to be last one.

There is no inherent evil. I stick to the Kantian idea here. Evil or good comes from "intention".
These people, in their own reality, are not doin something evil. Just as you view them as devils that can be killed, they view you as non-Human.

Humans have done this all over history. Turn the enemy into something disgusting that has to be destroyed. And I hate ISIS more than you can imagine. But I have seen people who are drawn to ISIS. I have seen their lives develop. Both in Europe and in Turkey. I know the mentality and what it feeds from.

I am not even against radicalism being one myself. But ISIS's radicalism feeds from a really problematic fantasy. And they justify kiiling of innocents easily.

I am all for military action against. In fact a lot of people I know went there to fight against them.
But we need to be careful where ISIS draws us into.
The deepening of polarization is not going to help any of us but them.
It is remarkable to get no lesson out of middle east in decades.

I do agree that this kind of tactic is an act of desperation as they could not touch any conventional military force without risking casualties as bad or worse than 10:1 against them. However I don't see where the empathy part is supposed to come from. France didn't bomb their country into ruins, rebels, ISIS and Assad did and ISIS is making a hellhole of the place. Where again does France come into that equation other than a very minor bystander? They are not even providing much of any firepower to that bombing campaign and it's not like that place wasn't already in ruins due to 5 years of civil war before the air campaign started because of ISIS invasion of Iraq.

While ISIS claimed responsibility I kind of question how much control they actually have. That's why it is so dangerous about it. Someone just takes dumb people, tells them lies to make them murder people and blow themselves up. Why would you seek any empathy for someone doing that?

It's ten steps removed from an act like Hamas blowing an Israeli disco up because there is no actual direct link.

I am not justifying the target. The target does not matter here. For ISIS, it is the impact that matters. It is a political move, not a military move.
France is part of the western world. It is also the place where ISIS has a lot of potential base.
France is full of second-class citizens that live in out-skirt poor towns and has has a collective memory against imperialism that is waiting to be exploited by radical Islam.

Thats where they breed so much. Among the lumpen-proleteriat.
There is an obvious class dynamic here, filled by an evil "false conciousness".

I don't think one can understand this in the context of military action between France and ISIS. It is a system issue. Thats where they can organize such things, they do it in the context of Syrian war. With whom? With alienated people's children who have fallen into radicalism.

edit: sorry for the consecutive posting

[Stavroforos]

The problem with military intervention is that it would require both a huge amount of effort to be done properly, and much planning. These things will not happen, so any intervention is probably going to make things worse instead of making them better.

[EmperorBatman999]

If there was ever a Casus Belli for taking down ISIS, this would be it.

[Roma_Victrix]

According to the Guardian, the gunmen who committed suicide had French, Egyptian, and Syrian passports.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/liv...b06fb53392c680

I wonder what this will mean for fighters returning to Europe from Syria to places like Sweden, where dangerous "former" jihadists are given psychological help and jobs and all sorts of feel good stuff to get them reintegrated back into Swedish society...so they can do to Stockholm what they've done to Paris.

http://speisa.com/modules/articles/i...jihadists.html

In either case, heads of state in Muslim-majority nations around the world are condeming the attack in Paris, including Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, Qatar, etc.:

http://tribune.com.pk/story/991351/m...y-with-french/

He's not being sectarian, he's just telling the truth. There IS a problem with Wahabbism. This ideology IS at the root of the problem, and it DOES need to be wiped out. I don't see it as a Sunni/Shia thing, Wahabbism is the enemy. Wahabbists don't just see the Shia as the enemy, they see us Sufis as apostates and pretty much anyone who doesn't agree with every word they say. They are takfiri extremists and they go beyond all bounds.

While this post was interesting and I don't dispute anything here, I would just point out that it's somewhat ironic quoting a US political figure talking about terrorism. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! The US government is in many ways the biggest terrorist of them all. Check out 'Operation Just Cause' in 1989, which killed more people than 9/11 and which was carried out by the US military. So yeah, I don't think US politicians are in any position to lecture others about terrorism, frankly.

American people are much loved - I've met Americans on my travels around the world and they have been some of the most lovely people I have met - so kind, so intelligent and good natured. My points above are aimed at government policy, not at the people. I hope posters here are sensible enough to distinguish the difference.

Cool! I didn't know you were Sufi. Has ISIS cracked down on any Sufis living in Syria or northern Iraq, in the same manner as the Yazidis, Assyrian Christians, Shia, Sunni dissenters, rival rebel groups, etc.? How many Sufis live in that region? In either case, whether the attackers in Paris were ISIS or al-Qaeda, either one of these options means they were Wahhabists, just like our nominally friendly ally Saudi Arabia.

Also, in terms of enemy combatants + civilian casualties, perhaps as many people died during the US invasion of Panama in 1989 as those who died during the 9/11 attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center (over 2,700 people and rising). However, there are conflicting estimates of the amount of civilians killed. The US military says 250, the UN says 500, and CODEHUCA claims 2,500. Then of course there were the 23 dead on the US forces side and the 300 or so enemy combatants dead on the side of the Panama Defense Force.

[pajomife]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0T30R520151114
"Syrian passport found near Paris' stadium bomber" Some people are aledging that this information is irrelevant because you can buy a fake passport, but it is still an interesting development.

Maybe the French navy rescue him from the sea.

[vtec.dominion]

The problem with military intervention is that it would require both a huge amount of effort to be done properly, and much planning. These things will not happen, so any intervention is probably going to make things worse instead of making them better.

Wrong. I say start using NEUTRON BOMBS in IS area and do that ASAP!

[Stavroforos]

Wrong. I say start using NEUTRON BOMBS in IS area and do that ASAP!

Poland can drop all its neutron bombs there if it wants.

[Boyar Son]

Oh, just great... The real tragedy isn't the 150+ deaths, since this happens all over the world on almost a daily basis, it's the hatred against entire cultures and nations that will follow.

Is this what leftism has come to?

hundreds of people dead and wounded. But you can't see beyond the reality on only focus on the feelings of others. If we are NOT blaming the muslims radicals that killed these people, then who are we blaming? Ah the "Nazis". The Nazi's caused this to happen?


Jesus Christ ... it happens on a daily basis so it's acceptable to you. What a bad ing joke. The real holocaust is someone saying something mean or being rightly suspicious about Islam! Jihadi John would shake your hand if he could.

If we are not blaming the terrorists, then I ing blame who enable them to come to France and Europe, and use a soft hand on questioning if they are all saints.

10/10 first time I've ever gotten angry at a post.

[AnthoniusII]

"Why I am NOT French today".
Of course I DO have a sympathy for those innocent people that lost their lives or wounded and their suffering families. Innocent people always pay the price. But are we all innocent or we having our own share in what world has become into? I explain to avoid misunderstandings. As citizens -each one of us in his/her country- we carry the ultimate responsibility of choosing our own governments. But after elections we forget that we as citizens are the bosses of our countries and leave our governments unchecked to do as they wish or follow the interests of their supporters. Isn't it true that EU,US and others interfere in domestic affairs in countries like Iraq, Egypt, Syria, or Libya? The financial interests of Bankers , construction companies and weapon dealers drove the governments WE ELECTED to spread hate and war in parts of the world that we have not right to interfere, just anyone has not the right to interfere in our country's affairs..
Now the citizens of the world , that their countries SO EASILY destroyed so many countries in the last 20 years pay the price. But i am afraid that the rest of the world will pay also a price following the false choices of citizens in US and EU. You- west/central European- citizens by electing your governments mannaged to spread hate and pain throughout the world. Are you innocent or you feel that you can harm people but those that harmed by you have no right to harm you?
We, the common people of this world pay a price about the crimes our financial oligarchs create.
In Democracies Citizens have the ultimate responsibility not those politicians that fooled them. WE AS CITIZENS must have the right to control our governments before they will lead us in such disasters like the French people lived yesterday. We must accept our responsibilities and not try to find easy excuses about “terrorism” or about the division of the world in the good and evil one. Our governments created that EVIL. Remember and learn who actually created those that we now call terrorists. The ultimate paradox is that the countries EU/USA accept as allies are those that fund those fanatics that caused so much agony and pain. The rest of the paradox is that EU/USA fights those that fight those fanatics. Remember that the heroes of Combane were terrorists in your eyes a year before because your "allies" wanted you to see them that way. Where is the truth? What if "tomorrow" that same French goverment, will make some huge arms deal with Saudi Arabia and Turkey in exchange of ISIL acknowledgment as official state? …Will French people forget the pain and the agony of today simply because some rich French people will gain more billion Euros?
Do we remember how easily we suported wars like the one in former Yugoslavia?
Is the pain of a French mother that loses her child bigger than any other mother that loses hers in evrywhere else in the world?
ALL mothers pain the same...ALL people pain the same. Do not forget that PLEASE!!!!!

[Gallus]

Oh, just great... The real tragedy isn't the 150+ deaths, since this happens all over the world on almost a daily basis, it's the hatred against entire cultures and nations that will follow.

Does that make it OK then? I guess holocaust wasn't a tragedy either because it was going on for years?

[athanaric]

Oh, just great... The real tragedy isn't the 150+ deaths, since this happens all over the world on almost a daily basis, it's the hatred against entire cultures and nations that will follow.

Those 150 deaths were caused by hatred against the entire French culture and nation, as well as against those of neighbouring countries. Is this the real tragedy you mean? I hope so.


@Anthonius II: your quote is a great example of Eurocentrism. And where is it from, anyway?

[Gallus]

I agree 100% here.
I will go even further. The responsibillity of all those inocent people deaths are of those that voted all these West European Goverments that serv the interests of the Bankers and Weapon dealers.
I explain. Most europeans and US citizens have no idea about the world, its people, its customs and its culture out side their borders!
YOU WESTERN PEOPLE voted goverments to put Middle East in flames.
Do you wish examples? Syria and Iraq had most of 45 years a political system (brutal sometimes) that excluded religion from politics.. The result was two countries that looked and worked more as european ones than middle east examples! But YOUR GOVERMENTS wanted to find free OIL and sell weapons and allow YOUR construction companies more work with HUGE PROFIT.
So you DEMOLISHED those countries and pushed their desperate people to radical ideas like that aufull idea Suadi Arabia and Qatar presents of PANISLAMIC Domination! See the paradox? YOUR allies in Middle east are those that fund (with Turkey) ISIS but YOUR ELECTION choices created goverments that ATTACKED to those in Middle east that were NO THREAT for you!
Do you want a more radical example? Lybia's leader was concidered terrorist for 40 years. After 40 years British Prime minister made new Oil and Gass deals and that ruler stoped beeing a terrorist anymore (only for British)...Then some west european goverments attacked Lybia because they were excluded from the deals and made Lybia a nest for terrorist vipers! Only then Italy realised its great mistake when hundreds of thousands of immigrants came to its land! But YOU the rest of Europeans laughed when you saw those immigrants in Greece and Italy beeing sure that YOU ARE to far away from danger. Next time you will VOTE a goverment of your make sure that it wont be the reason to lose inocent people EVERY WERE in the world. Because in EVERY WAR the real victims are THE INOCENT PEOPLE and not those idiots that start it!

You are right in principle, and in principle only. Look at the US. Did you notice any difference in foreign policy between Bush and Obama? I didn't. Both have started wars in the Middle East, even though Obama was supposed to be peaceful. People don't have as much control over governments as we would like to believe. The foreign policy never changes, no matter which party wins.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Can we speculate on what France has planned for retaliation? French foreign legion on the ground in Syria maybe? More bombings of ISIS targets? Honestly, any response has to be more than continued bombings. But you do not want to crush ISIS too quickly either by ground forces and allow terrorists to get out of the country.

Is there any easy solution to this? Prob not.

[Boyar Son]

@AnthoniusII



You can practically say I killed all those French myself, can't you!


Post after post I see ignorance and cowardice. I was not even old enough to vote Bush into office, Obama promised peace yet it was a month before I could legally vote for him. But it's still my fault? I created this evil by voting someone in?


You know who I blame? The killer. You know who you blame? The innocent.


That is all I have to say about the left in 2015. You aren't for the people and HAVEN'T BEEN FOR A LONG TIME.