Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 29 of 29

Thread: [UNITS] Pergamon (Out-Dated)

  1. #21
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    1,483

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Pergamon (WIP)

    I think the difference between the romans and the hellenistic nations lay in the proximity to a people with the expertise and the iron deposits required to equip a multitude of men with chainmail.

    The romans had nearly always had a relative proximity to the celtic cultural sphere, especially after they had conquered Gallia cisalpina.
    There they had access to ferrum noricum and a mainly celtic population to manufacture them in great numbers.

    Whereas the Seleucids had the Galatians, who, as you pointed out earlier, were either poor raiders or mercenaries, so their capabilites to do the same IMO is questionable.

    What are your thoughts? Do you know how many iron deposits were in Galatia?
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

    Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius

    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  2. #22

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Pergamon (WIP)

    I'm no expert on ancient iron working or ore deposits, but a few notes that I do know.

    1. Iron was actually cheaper and more readily available compared to other metals for the Greeks. By which I mean, bronze. Bronze is an alloy that requires tin which the Greeks had very limited access to. Carthage actually dominated the tin trade (one source of their massive wealth) with much of it actually coming from as far away as Britain.
    2. Iron by contrast was readily available in the Balkans. It's also available in Anatolia in the Taurus Mountains, Sicily, and Corsica et Sardinia. You also had iron throughout Asia with high quality material being traded from India.
    3. I'd emphasize that the Greeks were traders. They had colonized the entire Mediterranean centuries before the game's start. They had colonies along the Iberian coast, Sicily, in Southern Gaul, Italy, the Black Sea, Anatolia, Egypt etc. They were everywhere and I think people underestimate this. They already had extensive trade with the Carthaginians, Sicily, and the Etruscans by the fourth century.

    Iron was actually a key factor in allowing larger armies since of #1 up there.

    Now, the Romans still had access to higher quality iron ore from, as you've said, North of the Alps and Iberia. Iron ore is variable in quality. They had it in greater quantities and more access to skilled metal workers, as well. The Greeks were not overly skilled in this area. Sekunda theorizes that the odd triangular swords pictured on Ptolemaic reliefs are knock-off copies of the gladius. They didn't have the skill to make exact copies.

    There is, again, no doubt that they had mail armor, though. It's more a question of how widely used it would have been and where. I don't think even having access to the iron would have been a major issue. Were they going to produce stuff as good as the Celts? Probably not. But in general they had the wealth to acquire it.

    Even mainland Greece was very wealthy. I forget the book I read this in, but in the 2nd century BC, the wealthiest Greek merchants were still multiple times as rich as any Roman known. Italy had better land (and a greater population), but Greece was richer and more advanced with extensive trade networks all over the Mediterranean.


  3. #23
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Gdańsk, Poland
    Posts
    11,132

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Pergamon (WIP)

    There is one more thing why mail armour might not have been that much popular among Greeks. That argument if very trivial, but might also explain why we are still not certain about how widespread mail armour was...Greeks simply...prefered other armours for their visuals and cultural heritage.

    Why I brought up this argument? In XVII century, Polish Winged Hussars favoured special half plate armour with buletproof cuirass. Cuirass had to pass the test of fire (shooting at it from close range) and since it was able to stand against musket bullet with ease, it was impossible to break through it with any melee weapon. Sounds neat huh? Well, in the late XVII century Polish nobility was under strong influence of sarmatism, a cultural movement that put the origin of Polish nobility to come from ancient Sarmatian tribes. New movement made it's way into army too and some hussars dropped their traditional armour in favour of karacena armour (form of scale armour) that resembled a bit of old Sarmatian and Scythian armours. While it looked totally awesome, it did not had the qualities of hussars half plate armour, but was simply popular due to it's look and "origin".

    Why this could also apply for Greeks? Greeks were veeeery into their own culture, long time after colapse of last Greeks states, there was still an insitution of genearch (present even in old colonies in Asia) who was preventing Greeks from getting maried to non Greeks. Similar case was with Polish nobility, they also preserved their culture as a treasure that cannot be spoiled. Like you wrote ABH2, Greeks were far richer then Romans and so was the top of Polish nobility who would serve in Hussars regiments. They had enough money that instead of going for what is necessary, they would spend their money on more luxurious things, which often ended up with over the top armours.

    Of course I do not claim that it was the case with Greeks, but I just wanted to give you guys some food for thoughts
    Last edited by KAM 2150; December 20, 2015 at 01:47 PM.
    Official DeI Instagram Account! https://www.instagram.com/divideetimperamod/
    Official DeI Facebook Page! https://www.facebook.com/divideetimperamod

  4. #24
    Willhelm123's Avatar Decanus
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    York, UK
    Posts
    534

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Pergamon (WIP)

    I think you have a good point. Its the same as how you can see classical Roman influence in late Roman military style, and hell even late Byzantine style. But that still comes down to more of mimicking the style, it doesn't necessarily mean they will continue to wear inferior armour.
    AE Dev, mainly units

  5. #25

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Pergamon (WIP)

    Will this require one of the dlc faction packs in order to play it?

  6. #26

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Pergamon (WIP)

    No. This is for Attila. None of our content will be tied to CA's DLC"s like in Rome II. These factions were all made from scratch by us.


  7. #27

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Pergamon (WIP)

    May I see the evidence/sources on the phyrgian hoplites shields please? Because they are peltasts shields not Hoplite.
    i see you may have got the influence from homer adn the trojan hoplites with the disc cut out for the spears however it was never that large. I great magazine i cna photoscan if you like about the light infantry
    Last edited by Malarkey95; June 06, 2016 at 11:45 AM.

  8. #28
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    8,055

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Pergamon (WIP)

    Nice to see pacco's shields back in use!

  9. #29
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    8,055

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Pergamon (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    I think the difference between the romans and the hellenistic nations lay in the proximity to a people with the expertise and the iron deposits required to equip a multitude of men with chainmail.

    The romans had nearly always had a relative proximity to the celtic cultural sphere, especially after they had conquered Gallia cisalpina.
    There they had access to ferrum noricum and a mainly celtic population to manufacture them in great numbers.

    Whereas the Seleucids had the Galatians, who, as you pointed out earlier, were either poor raiders or mercenaries, so their capabilites to do the same IMO is questionable.

    What are your thoughts? Do you know how many iron deposits were in Galatia?
    Nonetheless the Greeks ised chainmail "the Greek" chainmail in later tumes, after reforms including Thorakitai proper units and Thorakitai Phalangitai or the Phalangitai received iron cuirasses similar to thoe of the Conqistadores... durin Alexander they left the plate behind because linothorax was easy to carry and pretty resistant in combat against all kind of damages, slashing and piercing most I guess and they also used scale and chain to add aditional defence capabilities, even lamellar plates...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •