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Thread: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

  1. #41

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    I wonder if it'd be a good idea to give Dorwinion Bowmen the ability to use flaming arrows, given how they're supposedly inspired by King's Longbowmen and more of a siege unit than the Rhovanion Hunters. What I forgot to mention to Guedes was that in the newer builds (from 3.2 onwards), if the halberdiers aren't enough for you, there are mercenaries with AP weapons available not far from Dorwinion's homelands, namely Rhovanion Rangers in the western Wilderland regions, and Variag Warriors, which you can even get around Fennas-rim after some time.

    Regarding North Rhűn, on paper their roster looks pretty good (aside from their weak cavalry), but you're right about the strategic aspect. They also have one of the weakest tech trees.

  2. #42

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Flaming arrows seem reasonable to me. I'm never sure how effective they are, though - I know there's supposed to be a morale hit, but they also seem to hit less than non-flaming arrows.

    Yeah, IIRC North Rhun has to get to tier 3 MD before they can make their signature Great Axes and armored spearmen. Usually T3 MD is going to happen at your capital, Fornhud, before anywhere else - and that's usually the opposite side of the chiefdom from where you're fighting. So the early game requires you to rely a lot on your Axemen as your 'best' melee unit. Slingers are good, though. And the cavalry is workable ... at least, they have large enough unit sizes to function ok en masse. I'm interested how the new Rhun BG (armed with javelins) will work for North Rhun.
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  3. #43

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    Another point in favor of the Dorwinion Bowmen (though it seems like your mind is made up, Guedes) is the small unit size. While in battle that can indeed be a liability, in a campaign where population is rather important, having a unit that is tougher and doesn't drain your population quite so much is actually a good thing.

    I also think Wambat's point is a good one. While in general the AI does attempt to protect its archers, giving it a melee-competent archer unit does help it out on those occasions when it fails to do so.
    20 or 30 pop more isnt worth paying for a unit that essentially will do the same of others for double the price.

    As for the AI, i already said it, its not worth for them; once you see those archers you will simply use your cheaper with more quantity and better range archers to hammer them down, unless you are assuming its a bad player playing the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post

    Regarding cavalry, are you playing the newest version, where Dorwinion has cavalry bodyguards? They are not very good against other heavy cavalry, but they should be great against archers and useful for the usual cavalry duties. The Rhovanion Scouts (your light cavalry) are actually a pretty good unit, they just can't fill all tactical roles.
    There is a discussion about Dorwinion units in this thread, feel free to contribute your experiences if you think we were missing something.

    I just checked, i do have the newest version. Happens that i was looking for those calvary units and wasnt finding them... them i realized you are actually talking about the unit which gives you a general (of course, Bodyguard calvary!).

    yeah, those arent fit for a "standard" calvary role for several reasons.
    Last edited by Guedes; February 08, 2017 at 05:57 PM.

  4. #44

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by Guedes View Post
    As for the AI, i already said it, its not worth for them; once you see those archers you will simply use your cheaper with more quantity and better range archers to hammer them down, unless you are assuming its a bad player playing the game.
    Well, I'd use the Dorwinion Bowmen against high-value targets that can't shoot back, while using the low tier archers to take out the enemy missile troops. That works pretty well with other factions.


    I just checked, i do have the newest version. Happens that i was looking for those calvary units and wasnt finding them... them i realized you are actually talking about the unit which gives you a general (of course, Bodyguard calvary!).

    yeah, those arent fit for a "standard" calvary role for several reasons.
    Well yeah, but they can fill some roles, and Dorwinion isn't supposed to have a great or diverse cavalry anyway. Aside from having the best stamina of any human cavalry unit, the light lancers are actually quite good against other cavalry, as long as you don't leave them in melee, and you can combat ranged cavalry with your foot archers. And it's not like you absolutely need heavy lancers to beat the enemy heavy cavalry - that's what halberdiers are for. Most other factions don't have a unit like this - with the exception of the RK, their (sort-of) equivalents either have a smaller unit size or are harder/impossible to get, or both.

  5. #45

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Population is important. Whether you think it's "worth it" or not depends on several factors: your treasury and per-turn income; your population and pop growth; your typical army composition; etc. Yes, the Dorwinion Bowmen cost double the other archers. I'd be asking for a raise if my boss wanted me to fight in a melee too.

    We're clearly not above tweaking units here, so if you have suggestions, let's hear 'em. But keep in mind that we're trying to hit a few notes with the unit in question:

    -its (pseudo)Dunedanic heritage means it will have a smaller unit size, but
    -it will have better armor/higher defense, and thus
    -it will have a higher cost

    As for the cavalry, IMO Dorwinion actually has some of the more useful cav in the mod. The Rhovanion Scouts are great for the cost for all the reasons athanaric listed above. The bodyguard cav fills an interesting role in Dorwinion's roster: think of it more as "mounted infantry" than true cavalry. That is, it enjoys the mobility of a cav unit and the greater staying power of infantry due to its armor, sword and shield - but it doesn't have a great charge and the small unit size can be a liability.
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  6. #46
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    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    Flaming arrows seem reasonable to me. I'm never sure how effective they are, though - I know there's supposed to be a morale hit, but they also seem to hit less than non-flaming arrows.
    iirc flaming arrows were not a feature weapon in any army medieval or ancient, afaik they were used mainly against towers or rams during sieges. I know the scenario of this mod is different so I only mention this for reference
    Last edited by Saul Tyre; February 09, 2017 at 06:00 AM. Reason: rephrased sentence
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  7. #47

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Well, I'd use the Dorwinion Bowmen against high-value targets that can't shoot back
    Yeah, flash news, you could have used hunters for the same thing with a better cost-effectiveness.

    I'm repeting myself for like the third time now and you guys simple dont understand that whatever this unit does, another unit can do for half the price, but that seems to much to understand huh, last try: this unit would be useful for like 100/120 upkeep, so you would have a slightly more priced unit for a little better all around archer unit on the field (you could even reduce its defenses a little if you want). However it cost pretty much the double of other specialized cheap units which can do their jobs at a way better cost-efficiency than this unit being it at melee fighting, maneuverability or just a vanilla archer spot.



    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Well yeah, but they can fill some roles, and Dorwinion isn't supposed to have a great or diverse cavalry anyway. Aside from having the best stamina of any human cavalry unit, the light lancers are actually quite good against other cavalry, as long as you don't leave them in melee, and you can combat ranged cavalry with your foot archers. And it's not like you absolutely need heavy lancers to beat the enemy heavy cavalry - that's what halberdiers are for. Most other factions don't have a unit like this - with the exception of the RK, their (sort-of) equivalents either have a smaller unit size or are harder/impossible to get, or both.
    And

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    Population is important. Whether you think it's "worth it" or not depends on several factors: your treasury and per-turn income; your population and pop growth; your typical army composition; etc. Yes, the Dorwinion Bowmen cost double the other archers. I'd be asking for a raise if my boss wanted me to fight in a melee too.

    We're clearly not above tweaking units here, so if you have suggestions, let's hear 'em. But keep in mind that we're trying to hit a few notes with the unit in question:

    -its (pseudo)Dunedanic heritage means it will have a smaller unit size, but
    -it will have better armor/higher defense, and thus
    -it will have a higher cost

    As for the cavalry, IMO Dorwinion actually has some of the more useful cav in the mod. The Rhovanion Scouts are great for the cost for all the reasons athanaric listed above. The bodyguard cav fills an interesting role in Dorwinion's roster: think of it more as "mounted infantry" than true cavalry. That is, it enjoys the mobility of a cav unit and the greater staying power of infantry due to its armor, sword and shield - but it doesn't have a great charge and the small unit size can be a liability.
    Never said population isnt important, i said it isnt worth paying escruciating price on a unit for 20 or 30 pop more.

    As for the noble calvary, the problem with them is the general unit which comes along; if it dies on the field you loose the whole unit, combine that with the excruciating time to train one of those (4 seasons) plus the obscene amount of traits which reduce general's hit points this mod have + the high chance of wounding the characters have every time you use them extensively over a battle which grant a massive chance of death for the general after a couple of battles if you use them like a standard calvary unit.

    However, i'm just fine with no calvary on the roster. All i said on my first post is that rhovanion has arguably a better roster than dorwinion because of the cavs and how i would switch those late game halberdiers (which arent that good anyways since you can live just fine with the watchs, plus, they are bugged, cant form a line) for the rhovanion cav any day.

  8. #48

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by Guedes View Post
    Yeah, flash news, you could have used hunters for the same thing with a better cost-effectiveness.

    I'm repeting myself for like the third time now and you guys simple dont understand that whatever this unit does, another unit can do for half the price, but that seems to much to understand huh, last try:


    Look, Guedes, it's not that I don't understand your argument. I just don't agree with it. The way to convince me isn't to suggest that I'm incapable of understanding or need a "news flash". The way to convince me is to bring some well-reasoned points to the table. And you know what? Even if you do that, we might still disagree.

    You have made some fair points. But you're veering into obnoxious territory here. Cool it, remember it's just a game, notice how polite everyone else in this thread is being, and carry on.

    I'm perfectly happy to have this conversation about unit balance and adjustments, and the team has proven that it's willing to use good ideas (NB the changes that have been made over the years based on player feedback).

    Thanks for your cooperation.
    Last edited by CountMRVHS; February 08, 2017 at 09:21 PM.
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  9. #49

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Tyre View Post
    iirc flaming arrows were not a feature weapon in any army medieval or ancient, afaik they were used mainly against towers or rams during sieges. I know this scenario is different so I only mention this for reference
    You may well be right. However, while I can't speak for other players, I use flaming arrows almost exclusively for dealing with enemy siege equipment, particularly towers (which is nice if you're playing a faction without ballistas or catapults). In the field, I rarely (if ever) use them, as they just don't seem very effective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guedes View Post
    All i said on my first post is that rhovanion has arguably a better roster than dorwinion because of the cavs and how i would switch those late game halberdiers (which arent that good anyways since you can live just fine with the watchs, plus, they are bugged, cant form a line) for the rhovanion cav any day.
    Yes, that is the secondary reason why I lobbied to get the Dorwinion Watch changed. The other thing you are missing is that a great amount of battles in this game are siege battles, and Dorwinion is a siege faction, whereas Rhovanion is terrible at this, having no real heavy infantry in their core roster.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by Guedes View Post
    Yeah, flash news, you could have used hunters for the same thing with a better cost-effectiveness.


    I'm repeting myself for like the third time now and you guys simple dont understand that whatever this unit does, another unit can do for half the price, but that seems to much to understand huh...
    Firstly, I would appreciate it if you could lose the attitude mate, it does you no favours in trying to convince anyone else of your point of view and you're being very condescending towards two people who understand RTW, and the mod in particular, as well as you do if not better.

    Everyone understands what you are saying, so instead of just assuming that their disagreement comes from ignorance, perhaps you can consider that their perspectives are informed by some information or insight that you could make the effort to try and understand.


    Now, I can't speak for anyone else but my personal take is as follows:

    1. Cost effectiveness isn't everything. Dorwinion is a faction that can afford to outspend it's own population growth and provincial development (ie. building something in every province, every turn). I notice from another thread that you've been missing some important details about how provincial control works, so that could well explain why you feel like the economy isn't that great, but I promise you that it really is, you can afford to keep the expensive units at the start and then add to them before too many turns pass if you make good economic decisions in the first few turns.

    2. So, for this faction at least, spending extra to get a unit that can perform two roles is not a terrible choice. Yes, hunters can do the same archery thing for better cost effectiveness, but as athanaric points out ammo is pretty limited in FATW, so once hunters have used their ammo basically they play no further role in the battle. Dorwinion Bows can expend their ammunition, and then you can throw them onto the flanks of a melee. I've won many close battles that way with units of this type, (City Longbowmen, Dorwinion Bows etc).

    3. Yes, you can instead get one unit of hunters and one unit of axemen for about the same upkeep, but you're spending about twice the population, and 2 unit slots in an army of 20 units, so if you have a lot of other solider types you want to fit in, and you can afford it, there is some benefit there from having dual role units that can free up that space in the army (and that population) for other units.

    Now, having said all that, I still tend to think that for most of the campaign the Hunters are a better choice, for experienced players anyway. From my point of view this is not because of problems with the Dorwinion Bowmen stats, but rather that milita archers in this mod across the board are too strong (because unit size and ammo count are more important than 1-2 points extra attack). I am currently looking at ways to address this in 3.3, and Dorwinion Bowmen will benefit from it, at the very least indirectly (though I quite like adding the flaming arrow ability, it fits the unit thematically).

  11. #51

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Concerning flaming arrows (game-play, not history):

    The primary value of flaming arrows is their morale hit. I would estimate from experience that a single volley of flaming arrows provides equivalent morale hit of three normal volleys all at once.

    I believe the flaming arrow morale hit does not stack, so you will get the same additional morale hit from just one of three archer units using it on the same target that you would from all three archer units using it on the same target. This is a good reason to spread your flaming arrow archers among your armies, and have them attack different groups in a battle.

    Flaming arrows are particularly effective if you can fire them into the back of an engaged enemy unit. So long as your own engaged unit is not on the verge of collapse, the enemy unit should break quickly, and the reduced lethality of the flaming arrows means less friendly fire casualties.

    I find flaming arrows particularly valuable in city battles, where narrow avenues and high buildings can make it difficult to concentrate fire from multiple units. And, of course, if you are facing Trolls or Mumakil you will want those flaming arrows on your side.

    Giving Dorwinion Bowmen flaming arrows would certainly be a valuable addition to Dorwinion's forces, and would make it easier for some players to see the value of the Dorwinion Bowmen.

    I do like the idea making higher tier archers more attractive by giving them a wider range of skills, or things like better stamina, rather than simply increasing their attack values.

  12. #52

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by webba84 View Post
    1. Cost effectiveness isn't everything. Dorwinion is a faction that can afford to outspend it's own population growth and provincial development (ie. building something in every province, every turn). I notice from another thread that you've been missing some important details about how provincial control works, so that could well explain why you feel like the economy isn't that great, but I promise you that it really is, you can afford to keep the expensive units at the start and then add to them before too many turns pass if you make good economic decisions in the first few turns.
    Being on point with the economy and build order is indeed very important. Even the RK, as one of the most powerful factions, has a tight budget for much of the campaign.


    Now, having said all that, I still tend to think that for most of the campaign the Hunters are a better choice, for experienced players anyway. From my point of view this is not because of problems with the Dorwinion Bowmen stats, but rather that milita archers in this mod across the board are too strong (because unit size and ammo count are more important than 1-2 points extra attack). I am currently looking at ways to address this in 3.3, and Dorwinion Bowmen will benefit from it, at the very least indirectly (though I quite like adding the flaming arrow ability, it fits the unit thematically).
    There's a similar dynamic between Archers of Harad and Redsand Archers. The latter are perhaps the most cost-efficient archers in the game, being dirt cheap while also boasting great range and a large unit size.

  13. #53

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Alright, I'll add my views on those topics as well..

    So, what's the more difficult faction? Certainly Dorwinion isn't more difficult than Rhovanion. March Wardens are great, no question, but they cannot outweigh Dorwinion Halberdiers, Watch, Bowmen, and Men at Arms alone. The rangers don't really differentiate Rhovanion from Dorwinion due to the mercenary version being available to everyone. And then Dorwinion has the most solid infantry line in the region at game start. 3 Dorwinion Watch, 2 Halberdiers, and 1 Men at Arms plus some of the more basic Rhovanion units can destroy pretty much everything in the area. I can't really see how it is harder to expand with them than with Rhovanion.

    Some notes on the Dorwinion units: I like the idea of flaming arrows for Dorwinion Archers. This is definitely a way to make them more useful in the later game when more archer options are available. At the start I like to have 4 Rhovanion Hunters and 2 Dorwinion Bowmen in my armies. Once Dale is conquered these units can be replaced by Retainer Longbowmen and Dale Mercenaries. Giving flaming arrows to the Dorwinion Archers is a way to differentiate them more from those mercenaries, which are in my opinion currently the better alternative. I'd also second the considerations about removing AP from the Watch and making the Men at Arms stronger. They did not impress me. Besides that I think Dorwinion is perfectly fine. The only thing I'd maybe consider in addition is to make the regular version of the Rhovanion Rangers available to them as well. I don't see a reason why they shouldn't also have them if they get to the Brown Lands.

    And on North Rhun: I played a longer campaign some months ago. They were difficult, for sure, but also doable. I found taking Belegant and Fort Carnen early very useful. These could be easily defended with basic units. Then I sent everything towards Rhun, eventually conquering Tham. The economy will never be super great, but controlling the trade around the lake gives a decent position to take on Dale. Using Wambat's diplomatic moves to make more money will make it easier. Unfortunately I never got as far to recruit Vassal Macemen with North Rhun. They'd surely be a great addition.
    The easterling bodyguards are quite weak, giving them javelins would be a cool idea to make them more powerful. I always underestimated the Rhovanion Bodyguards, until my unit of Durin's Guard got killed in record time by the javelins of the Rhovanion faction leader. It would be a helpful ability for easterling generals, especially against Dorwinion, Adunabar, and the Dwarves. Barbarian generals also often become good hunters. Javelins would reflect that. Besides that I'm happy with the North Rhun roster.

  14. #54
    webba84's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by Dáin II View Post
    ...I like the idea of flaming arrows for Dorwinion Archers...
    ...I'd also second the considerations about removing AP from the Watch and making the Men at Arms stronger...
    The easterling bodyguards are quite weak, giving them javelins would be a cool idea to make them more powerful...
    Then you'll be pleased to hear that all these changes are already in v3.3 .

  15. #55

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by Wambat View Post
    I do like the idea making higher tier archers more attractive by giving them a wider range of skills, or things like better stamina, rather than simply increasing their attack values.
    This is an excellent point. Stats are important to signal elite status, but versatility makes for a more interesting tactical experience.

    Thanks for your thoughts on use of flaming arrows, too - most of the time I just use them against Mumakil/Trolls when playing the RK, and then forget about them.
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  16. #56

    Default Re: FATW: Dominion of Men Faction and Gameplay Guides

    Quote Originally Posted by webba84 View Post
    Then you'll be pleased to hear that all these changes are already in v3.3 .
    That is nice to hear indeed! Likely that I'll start my first campaign in the new version with one of the affected factions.

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