CA response

[Modestus]

Hm guess I was right on all points. Chaos in the vanilla game as Mongol esque late boss, they decided to add it as a DLC for this one despite not being the man focus of the game and it never was, Chaos getting a full release later with daemons and gods.

Hmm are you saying Chaos is cut content from the second\ third game? I presume somebody budgeted for Archaon the Everchosen descending from some place to somewhere at some point.

[Huberto]

There is fine line with this too, while I don't mind missing out on factions or campaign, I would hate to miss out on features. DLCs that expand on features feels a lot less optional then content DLC.

Yes features DLC wouldn't be acceptable unless it was developed and released well after Day One.

As long as the campaign preview is good I'm prepared to swing behind CA on this one. They've set out their position fairly well and there's nothing I can't understand there. Regarding the whole "why they need pre-orders" thing, it's as they say; it gives the publisher confidence in the product, and that confidence is needed if SEGA are going to devote their (now limited) funding to this particular franchise.

This doesn't make sense because sales are the data that matters above all in deciding whether to back a franchise with capital, not pre-orders. Pre-orders are simply a way to induce sales without giving consumers a real opportunity to try or find out about the game. In other words, pre-orders are companies trying to trick consumers into paying for something they don't have or know about. Apparently, this is something that is very profitable in the games industry at the moment.

[Red Dox]

I like the part stretching how they want all the armies, all the units, all the magic...and then say nothing about the huge holes in the Chaos DLC roster ^^ And No, before someone feels to point out the Daemon part, I do mean the missing units from the "Warriors of Chaos" book.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14741960


Regarding the cut-content, they had to give an response and I never doubted it would something around these lines. What else can they say? I do not buy their explanation (since Chaos was already in the game and the costs with an "DLC workinG" team would be the same, only with more individual income in the long term) but there is nothing we can do about it. Preorder, do not preorder it makes no difference. And next expansion the same thing will happen again. We just have to wait which races are in the expansion and can then guess who wins the DLC lottery

-----Red Dox

[DavidtheDuke]

But...he didn't really explain why pre-orders are so important to their company, except to admit there isn't a budget to do everything they'd like to do. Well, no . He's also revealing that the end-game hinges around a faction that wasn't budgeted for in the main game?

He'd probably respond with that warriors of Chaos weren't meant to be playable in the first Warhammer iteration (true or not). Technically, making a faction playable does take a good bit more work, like developing the lords and the inner faction politics interface bla bla, but I figure they were always designed to be playable from the get go. CA just wants more money to factor in the price they want for all of this (either because they literally need it or just want more money, for money's sake).

I'm going to keep saying they want more money, for whatever reason, it's up to the consumer to find it worth that or not.

[Imperator Artorius]

The fact CA didn't see the backlash over the Chaos pre-order DLC coming is rather worrying.

Unless of course they did see it coming but were forced by Sega to go ahead.

[Napoleon Complex]

This doesn't make sense because sales are the data that matters above all in deciding whether to back a franchise with capital, not pre-orders. Pre-orders are simply a way to induce sales without giving consumers a real opportunity to try out the game. In other words, pre-orders are companies trying to trick consumers into paying for something without trying it out. Apparently, this is something that is very profitable in the games industry at the moment.

I think there is an element of time to this. CA needs a certain amount of time to develop X product, and a budget to do so. If SEGA has to wait until all the sales figures are in before making a decision, then CA has to wait a long period to release DLC for the game, during which time the original product will have aged and have a much lower market profile as newer releases eclipse it. With pre-order data SEGA can see early that sales are going to be good and fund CA to develop DLC earlier (or at all, instead of funding other studios) as they can see the game is going to turn a good profit. If my logic and observations about Mike and Rob's statement and the game industry as a whole are correct then pre-order numbers give publishers the confidence to fund more projects more quickly which are more likely to sell, rather than late DLC that won't be as visible. These successful DLCs in turn contribute to the overall success of the project, which makes sequels and expansions that much more likely also.

[Charerg]

The fact CA didn't see the backlash over the Chaos pre-order DLC coming is rather worrying.

Unless of course they did see it coming but were forced by Sega to go ahead.

The fact that the Pre-order bonus was announced this early kind of implies that they did foresee the reception the Chaos DLC would receive. Probably the plan is to announce it well in advance so people will have largely written it off as "old news" by the time the game is released.

[Markas]

Still too significant of a pre-order bonus for costumers after Rome 2, imo. Surely it was voiced in meetings this would be an issue?

Soon, through the eyes of the Greenskins, we’ll be showing you campaign gameplay for the first time.

Orcs and the campaign map? This should be interesting.

[Col. Tartleton]

It was kind of obvious it was going to happen when the cinematic focuses on Chaos and there wasn't a fifth chaos faction in the core four. So its kind of silly to get upset about it.

You can pre order and get it for free with the other factions or wait and not pre order and then pay for it when you buy the game. That's a valid choice to make.

I only get bothered when things are exclusive to the pre-order. This is just a bundle. Like making the tenth playable race, Imperial, in Elder Scrolls Online pre-order exclusive was bonkers and turned a lot of people off.

[Tullaris]

Its also hard to imagine they just 'added' a faction a long the way. Most likely this was their plan from day one. You don't really hire some developers and drop in a faction just like that. You need voices, animations, game balance, all kinds of stuff the regular team was working on too. This is just PR BS that CA is feeding us. You can see they still play us for idiots even after the disappointments of Rome and Atilla.

I wish they would just focus on making the best game they can. If they did that it would sell 30-40% more copies. Because of their actions I am worried now. I'm worried its going to be the same mess as Rome. Bad AI, bugs, BAD design.

Games Workshop already screwed WHF over with Age of Sigmar... Can't say I have really high expectations, just a faint hope that the game is going to be awesome after all..

[Sharpe]

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...trage_from_ca/ - If you fancy a bit more unbiased discussion than TWC.

A good response.

Bottom line:

If we were to add this extra content to the main game, we’d be operating at a loss, which we wouldn’t do.

Also:

Before release day, you should be in a position where you can read reviews and see the impressions from your favourite Youtuber, and still have time to decide if you want to pre-order.

Transparent and cynical. I've no doubt it won't be considered much here.

That is the nature of modern day games, the cost has to increase to match the largely increased production costs. Teams of hundreds working on them. Resource costs. Rome 1 retailed at 30-40 quid and about 12 guys worked on it.

It's not cut content - it has it's resource and production scheme. The victimhood being displayed is ridiculous - have any of you worked on a budgeted project?

Buy hey, CA amirite?

[Tankbustaz]

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...trage_from_ca/ - If you fancy a bit more unbiased discussion than TWC.

A good response.

Bottom line:



Also:



Transparent and cynical. I've no doubt it won't be considered much here.

That is the nature of modern day games, the cost has to increase to match the largely increased production costs. Teams of hundreds working on them. Resource costs. Rome 1 retailed at 30-40 quid and about 12 guys worked on it.

It's not cut content - it has it's resource and production scheme. The victimhood being displayed is ridiculous - have any of you worked on a budgeted project?

Buy hey, CA amirite?

I wonder how butthurt TWC will be if CA is acquired by paradox

[Vardeus]

The fact that the Pre-order bonus was announced this early kind of implies that they did foresee the reception the Chaos DLC would receive. Probably the plan is to announce it well in advance so people will have largely written it off as "old news" by the time the game is released.

Crafty. Your hypothesis makes a lot of sense.

[Sharpe]

I think the opposite would be true, many members here enjoy Paradox games, and seeing real time battles would make them that much better.

[DavidtheDuke]

I think the opposite would be true, many members here enjoy Paradox games, and seeing real time battles would make them that much better.

Yeah I'm pretty sure people would sing songs of liberation not doom and gloom.

[RuntyGorillaz]

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...trage_from_ca/ - If you fancy a bit more unbiased discussion than TWC.

A good response.

Bottom line:



Also:



Transparent and cynical. I've no doubt it won't be considered much here.

That is the nature of modern day games, the cost has to increase to match the largely increased production costs. Teams of hundreds working on them. Resource costs. Rome 1 retailed at 30-40 quid and about 12 guys worked on it.

It's not cut content - it has it's resource and production scheme. The victimhood being displayed is ridiculous - have any of you worked on a budgeted project?

Buy hey, CA amirite?

I personally agree with you since pre-orders in my country doesn't require me to pay upfront in order to recieve the bonus. However how would you feel if games instead increased their price but removed all "anti consumer" practices i.e. a complete Total War: Warhammer with all factions/DLC to the cost of let's say a 100 dollars? Not taking a jab at you, just being curious.

[Sharpe]

However how would you feel if games instead increased their price but removed all "anti consumer" practices i.e. a complete Total War: Warhammer with all factions/DLC to the cost of let's say a 100 dollars? Not taking a jab at you, just being curious.

I don't think it would be well received at all. The spacing of DLC allows people to put money aside rather than forking out in a lump sum. But then again you could argue that you could just save up until the complete release.

But with DLC the way it is, you can still get a full(ish) game for a reasonable price. You don't have to buy every bit of DLC and so you don't spend.

Gaming is an expensive business, but at the same time it's a needless luxury.

[Abdülmecid I]

So, their budget was not enough, so they decided to make Chaos pre-order DLC to gain more money? Umm, that' would increase their profits, not their budget, which is an entirely different thing. And if they were actually concerned about their profits, then how do they know, six months before the release while the game is still in pre-alpha, that it wouldn't sell well enough to cover their expenses? Because a game highly anticipated by a large number of people and divided into three sounds like a sure bet. BTW, saying that money was the problem and then claiming that, in response to that, you made a faction planned to become DLC free for everyone who pre-orders is contradictory.

[Theo]

As it happens, for us money isn't our main objective, but just like income in a TW campaign, it's important because more money lets us do more stuff.

Pre-orders create buzz, improve sales and give the whole studio confidence in what we’re doing.

LOL. Clearly $ = confidence.

A good portion of us have been arguing that whatever we say in response will just fan the flames - that there is no possible response we can actually make that would make it better.

There is one response, pulling the pre-order bonus and apologizing to your fans...

So is adding chaos as a pre-order incentive "cut content"? I think the opposite is true. If we didn't add it to the pre-order, it would have been DLC later on and not in the game at release.

Which most people would be fine with, and which never would have generated the level of controversy this has.

[DavidtheDuke]

Which most people would be fine with, and which never would have generated the level of controversy this has.

They would've been fine with it, but I think Mike is saying it has already been developed, so they're giving it away now. He's right, in a practical way for sure.