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Thread: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

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    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Next up are the units belonging to the Palatinae. Again I have been able to expand on the existing roster and am grateful to Joar, Razor and lief_erikson for the use of their textures, shield designs. Roman helmets and equipment are courtesy of Razor.

    Legio Palatina Herculiani Seniores and Ioviani Seniores



    The Herculianii and Jovianii Legios were created by the Emperor Diocletion as guard units for himself and co-emperor Maximian in the end of the 3rd century and were still in service at the beginning of the 5th century. The cognomen of the legion refers to Hercules, to whom Diocletion's colleague, Maximian (also known as Herculius, "the man like Hercules") was devoted. The Herculiani Palatini unit was drawn from the VI Herculia which was stationed, together with her sister legio V Iovia, in Pannonia Secunda, a new province created with the segmentation of the old Pannonia province. The legio received the ordinal "Fifth" because there were already four legios. The purpose of the legio was to protect the imperial residence of Diocletian in Sirmium. These legios had fought well for Diocletian and were thus rewarded with his favour. They were renowned for their use of the lead-weighted darts plumbarati. They carried 5 of these in the hollow of their shields and were thrown prior to contact with the enemy. They had a longer range than conventional javelins and pila. They were part of the original five Palatina Legio’s, the first of which may go back to Gallienus. These were the Lanciarii, Ioviani, Herculiani, Divitenses and Tungricani. By this period Legio units had proportions of light armed troops called lanciarii named after the javelins (lancea) they were armed with. It has been suggested that a legio unit had between 1/4 to 1/3 of skirmishing trops armed either with javelins, darts of bows. These troops could act as skirmishers or support troops to the more heavily armed Legionaires. They were often sent to act independently and sometimes brigaded together with other lanciarii. The lanciarii are armed with Veruta and Spatha.

    These units will be recruited in Rome.

    Legio Palatina Herculiani Iuniores and Ioviani Iuniores



    To deal with the barbarian factions that use higher proportions of cavalry, namely the Iazyges and Goths. these heavily armed units are armed with thrusting spear (Lancea) and Spatha. The lanciarii units are armed with Veruta and Spatha.

    These units will be recruited in Sirmium.

    Legio Pannoniciani Seniores and Legio Moesiaci Seniores



    The Pannoniciani Seniores name comes from the province from which it was created, Pannonia Upper. It is possible that this unit was created out of the existing frontier legions stationed in Pannonia Upper, the X Gemina and the XIV Gemina. The Moesiaci Seniores name comes from the province from which it was created, Moesia Upper. It is possible that this unit was created out of the existing frontier legions stationed in Moesia Upper, the IV Flavia Felix and the VII Claudia. The heavily armed units are armed with Spiculum and Spatha. The lanciarii are armed with Veruta and Spatha. The untis are recruitable in Arles.

    Legio Mattiari Iuniores and Lanciarii Seniores



    The name Matiarii might have something to do with Mars directly but given the pairing of the units Matiarii and Lanciarii, it is more likely to have come by a more indirect route, from mattiobarbuli - the lead-weighted throwing darts (Vegetius 1.17) with which infantrymen were equipped. The Lanciarii Seniores is one of the earliest guard units probably created around the time of Gallienus. It was one of the original five Palatina Legio’s, the first of which may go back to Gallienus. These were the Lanciarii, Ioviani, Herculiani, Divitenses and Tungricani. The use of the term lanciarius to cover any member of the imperial bodyguard first appeared during the Tetrarchy, even if such men were not armed with the lancea. It has been suggested that under Constantine, all lanciarii were grouped together to form a single elite legio, possibly the original legio Lanciarii. Others have stated that the lanciarii comes from the legio Parthica II which later became the Domestici Pedites. Either way, it seems that the lanciarii started off as guard troop. This guarding function led in the late 3rd century to the term lanciarius connotating 'Imperial guard' in much the way 'scutarius' came to, so that the term came to embrace non-legionary guards as well. In the 4th century, most of these lanciarii units were no longer employed as guards. The Notitia Dignitatum lists a number of units styled lanciarii. In the west: the Lanciarii Sabarienses, the Lanciarii Gallicani Honoriani (or Lanciarii Honoriani Gallicani), the Lanciarii Lauriacenses and the Lanciarii Comaginenses; and in the east, the Lanciarii seniores, the Lanciarii iuniores (two different units), the Lanciarii Stobenses and the Lanciarii Augustenses. All are legionary infantry units. The Lanciarii came to be one of the senior field legios with the Herculiani and Joviani which were created later by the Emperor Diocletion as guard units for himself and co-emperor Maximian in the end of the 3rd century and were still in service at the beginning of the 5th century. Lanciarii Seniores was probably created out of the lanciarii troops of the II Parthica legio.

    The heavily armed Mattiari are armed with Spicula and Spatha, while the heavily armed Lanciarii Seniores are armed with long thrusting spear (Hastata) and Spatha. The Mattiari Ioniores lanciarii are armed with Veruta and Spatha, while the Lanciarii Seniores lanciarii are armed with plumbartii and spatha.

    Both units are recruitable in Constantinople.

    Legio Armatus Invicti Iulianus



    This is a fictitious unit recruited in Antioch in the name of Iulianus himself. There is a very heavily armed unit armed with long thrusting spear (hastata) and spatha. This unit would normally take up position at the front. Behind these troops are the lesser armed though still heavily armed unit with spicula and spatha. The lanciarii troops are armed with plumbartii and spatha. Combined with sagitarii, funditores or manubalistarii units makes a formidable combination to take on heavily armed cavalry like those of the Armenians and Sassanids.

    Legio Armatus Constantius





    This is a fictitious unit recruited in Antioch in the name of Constantius II himself. There is a very heavily armed unit armed with long thrusting spear (hastata) and spatha. This unit would normally take up position at the front. Behind these troops are the lesser armed though still heavily armed unit with spicula and spatha. The lanciarii troops are armed with plumbartii and spatha.

    Legio Sagitarii



    Two types of sagitarii, light and heavily armed.

    Screenshots
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    Auxilia Cornuti Seniores and Auxilia Brachiati Seniores




    The Cornuti Seniores were often brigaded with the Brachiati Seniores. Auxilia palatina were first raised by Constantine I as part of the new field army he created in about 325. There were originally ten units, these being; Cornuti, Brachiati, Petulantes, Celtae, Heruli, Batavi, Mattiaci, Salii, Regii, and Tubantes. It is probable that these units were recruited by Constantine from barbarian tribes that were loyal to him, but not as yet roman citizens, hence being Auxilia units. These units over time would have become armed and equipped in a similar fashion to legionary troops, though not as heavily armed and in some ways filled the role of auxiliary units of the early principate period. The difference between Auxilia Palatina units and Legio Comitatenses and Legio Palatina units was that they were more versatile, being able to stand in line like legionaries or carry out skirmishing roles if required. Much like Legio Palatina units, Auxilia Palatina were originally in the service of the Emperor, but would have been transferred to regional armies as required.

    These troops are armed with a longer version of the plumbartii and thrusting spear (lancea). These units are recruited in Milan.

    Auxilia Celtae Seniores and Auxilia Petulantes Seniores




    The Celtae Seniores were often brigaded with the Petulantes Seniores. Auxilia palatina were first raised by Constantine I as part of the new field army he created in about 325. There were originally ten units, these being; Cornuti, Brachiati, Petulantes, Celtae, Heruli, Batavi, Mattiaci, Salii, Regii, and Tubantes. It is probable that these units were recruited by Constantine from barbarian tribes that were loyal to him, but not as yet roman citizens, hence being Auxilia units. These units over time would have become armed and equipped in a similar fashion to legionary troops, though not as heavily armed and in some ways filled the role of auxiliary units of the early principate period. The difference between Auxilia Palatina units and Legio Comitatenses and Legio Palatina units was that they were more versatile, being able to stand in line like legionaries or carry out skirmishing roles if required.




    These troops are armed with a longer version of the plumbartii and thrusting spear (lancea). These units are recruited in Colonia Agrippa.

    Auxilia Victores Seniores and Auxilia Mattiaci Seniores



    The name Victores ("Victorious"), although a common Roman military epithet, probably in this case comes from the name "Victor". This name was adopted by Constantine I after defeating Licinius, in place of his former usage of "Invictus" (see Constantine: Roman Emperor, Christian Victor; Paul Stephenson, 2009, page 216), after publicly espousing Christianity in place of the worship of Sol Invictus. It is notable that the shield pattern of the Victores bears a small cross above the central scalloped star shape overtly Christian symbolism is otherwise almost entirely absent in the Notitia. The name Mattiaci is tribal; according to Tacitus in the 1st century, belonging to a German tribe that were neighbours of the Batavians. Many units in the Notitia carry such apparently tribal names inherited from units of auxilia raised centuries in the past, although in many cases, the tribal name had been transferred to a locality; such is the case here, as "Aquis Mattiacorum" was a famous spa town rom the second century; it is now known as Wiesbaden. Which former Cohors Mattiacorum (if any) the eastern Mattiaci seniores may have been descended from is unknown; by far the best attested unit is Cohors II Mattiacorum, which is known from scores of inscriptions and military diplomas dating to the early 2nd century in particular; an example is a statue base from Carnuntum in Austria that bears an inscription (AE 1992, 1431) mentioning a TRIB COH II MATTIACOR M EQ, which expands to "trib(unus) coh(ortis) II Mattiacor(um) m(illiariae) eq(uitatae)". These troops can fight both as skirmishers but also as line units.

    The units are armed with a longer version of the plumbartii and are recruited in Thessalonika. They belong to the Magister Militum Prasentalis I Field Army

    Auxilia Victores Iuniores and Auxilia Batavi Iunoires



    The name Victores ("Victorious"), although a common Roman military epithet, probably in this case comes from the name "Victor". This name was adopted by Constantine I after defeating Licinius, in place of his former usage of "Invictus" (see Constantine: Roman Emperor, Christian Victor; Paul Stephenson, 2009, page 216), after publicly espousing Christianity in place of the worship of Sol Invictus. The name Batavi is tribal, coming from a Germanic tribe that lived in what is now the Netherlands; they provided the empire with many units of auxiliaries in the early empire in particular. This unit is more lightly armed than its counterparts and is armed with only a large shield, heavy throwing spear and sword.

    These units are armed with heavy throwing weapon (angon) and thrusting spear (lancea). The are recruited in Britain.

    Auxilia Ascarii Seniores and Auxilia Leones Iuniores



    The shield design for Leones Iuniores appears to be the "wrong" shield pattern; like that of some other western auxilia palatina units, it has been shifted from its proper place (or, to be more exact, the label has likely been shifted from its proper place), and this pattern instead properly belongs to the previous unit in the list, the Leones seniores. Rather, the true pattern of the Leones iuniores appears to be that from the unit Tubantes. It is possible these apparently human heads are supposed to represent lion heads, and have been somewhat mutated in the transmission process of copying the original Notitia document into the now-lost Speyer manuscript from which all the surviving manuscript copies derive. The origins of the name Ascarii are obscure: the only suggestion is that of Mommsen's back in 1889, deriving the the Greek "askos", meaning "skin, bag, hide", with the implication the unit was skilled in crossing rivers on them. A unit of Ascarii are mentioned by Ammianus (27.2.9) as capturing an Alamannic king, and plundering without orders; when "the" Ascarii were split between seniores and iuniores is unknown, beyond presumably being mid 4th-century.

    These units are lightly armed and are armed with only a large shield, heavy throwing axe and sword. They are recruited in gaul.

    Auxilia Mauri Seniores and Auxilia Mauri Iuniores



    The shield design for this unit belongs to the Mauri Tonantes Seniores. The name Mauri denotes the Moorish peoples, although there is every indication that by this date the term, as used in the Roman military, denoted not an ethnicity but a particular kind of military unit, although exactly what is hard to say (probably a light unit; whether of horse or, as in this case, of foot), as it is also very likely that this meaning had also been superseded with time (most Roman infantry units likely now having their own integral light troops), leaving the name doubly fossilized! Tonantes means "the thunderers", a suitable enough name for a military unit. These units are more lightly armed than their counterparts and are armed with only a large shield, verutas and sword. They are recruited in Africa.

    Auxilia Sagitarii



    Screenshots
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    Last edited by julianus heraclius; November 02, 2015 at 04:18 AM.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Hello Julianus,

    i have a question concerning the zone of recruitment of Herculiani/Ioviani and Cornuti/bracchiati : why in italy ?
    During this timeframe, we know at least that the two auxilia were stationed in Gaul (they fought in Argentoratum and it is a bracchiati milites who actually crowned Julian), and the two palatina legios were incorporated in the gallic comitatus of Magnentius (who was their comes), inherited by Julian.

    cheers

  3. #3
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorien View Post
    Hello Julianus,

    i have a question concerning the zone of recruitment of Herculiani/Ioviani and Cornuti/bracchiati : why in italy ?
    During this timeframe, we know at least that the two auxilia were stationed in Gaul (they fought in Argentoratum and it is a bracchiati milites who actually crowned Julian), and the two palatina legios were incorporated in the gallic comitatus of Magnentius (who was their comes), inherited by Julian.

    cheers
    In some ways it's about game mechanics. As most units are recruitable along the borders, there are a limited number of cities to recruit comitatensis and palatine units. These locations may change, but the Herculiani/Ioviani are currently recruitable in Arles but they have been replaced by the Legio Pannoniciani Seniores and Legio Moesiaci Seniores, but this could still change before the final product is released.

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    _Tartaros_'s Avatar "Harzschütze"
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    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    whow - this is really great work +rep

  5. #5

    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    OMG this is an amazing work! Great job, can't wait and see the next developments of SAI and RO!


  6. #6
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Glorious units, I am big fan of the crests on helmets

  7. #7

    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Quote Originally Posted by julianus heraclius View Post
    In some ways it's about game mechanics. As most units are recruitable along the borders, there are a limited number of cities to recruit comitatensis and palatine units. These locations may change, but the Herculiani/Ioviani are currently recruitable in Arles but they have been replaced by the Legio Pannoniciani Seniores and Legio Moesiaci Seniores, but this could still change before the final product is released.
    i see your point. In a way, if we were ayatollah of historical accuracy, having quite all the best troops recruitable on borders sounds perfect : many scholars have written that the collapse of the roman army began with the loss of northern gaul (where many auxilia were recruited, among celtic and germanic people of the borders) and the devastation of the pannoniae, the tank of roman soldiers since the second century.
    Playing as WRE, you have to decide between defending rich cities and latifundia of the inside and pay with its gold foreign troops (what actually Romans did) or ripae, wich is more difficult and very, very expensive in all way (conscriptio, tax raising, more troops on the borders, need of dangerous half-independant generals comanding more regional concentration of troops, like in the Dominat).

  8. #8
    Stath's's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Fantastic work!! Of the highest level!!


  9. #9
    Sertorio's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Fantastic. We wouldn't expect less from the SAI team. It's always a pleasure to follow these threads. Congratulations.
    Texture works by Sertorio, banner courtesy of Joar

    My AAR for VGRII-AQUILAE

  10. #10

    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Holy crap, well done!


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  11. #11
    tomySVK's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Amazing units!

  12. #12
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Fantastic units - I am looking forward to playing these. Great work all round.

  13. #13

    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Is it possible to add any legio's that use axes as there main weapon? I know that Romans preferred to use swords, javelins, & spears, but it would be interesting to see some diversity in their weapons. Like from the last Roman DLC from Attila total war, the bucellari guard axeman. Or would it not match the time frame?

  14. #14
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex647 View Post
    Is it possible to add any legio's that use axes as there main weapon? I know that Romans preferred to use swords, javelins, & spears, but it would be interesting to see some diversity in their weapons. Like from the last Roman DLC from Attila total war, the bucellari guard axeman. Or would it not match the time frame?
    I don't think it fits the timeframe. There are some Auxilia Palatinae units that have heavy throwing axes and heavy throwing spears (angon) but otherwise there are no roman units with axes as a secondary weapon.

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  15. #15

    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Quote Originally Posted by julianus heraclius View Post
    I don't think it fits the timeframe. There are some Auxilia Palatinae units that have heavy throwing axes and heavy throwing spears (angon) but otherwise there are no roman units with axes as a secondary weapon.
    Ah I see, I was thinking that the Romans adapted to using axes as a primary weapon.

  16. #16

    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Wonderful units! I cannot wait to see them in battle!

  17. #17

    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Really cool to have a variety of auxiliary units with distinct looks and, of course, shield patterns! Will you be using more of the stuff from Notitia Dignitatum? I'd love to see the Heruli alongside the Batavi for example.
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  18. #18
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Quote Originally Posted by Dansk viking View Post
    Really cool to have a variety of auxiliary units with distinct looks and, of course, shield patterns! Will you be using more of the stuff from Notitia Dignitatum? I'd love to see the Heruli alongside the Batavi for example.
    I'll see what I can do. Please bear in mind any revisions to SAI will not come until both the RO and Constantine mods have been released.

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  19. #19

    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Quote Originally Posted by julianus heraclius View Post
    I'll see what I can do. Please bear in mind any revisions to SAI will not come until both the RO and Constantine mods have been released.
    Ah, fair enough. I haven't visited the IB forums for like a decade, so I'm a bit out of tune with how things are being developed... Will this great diversity of units be used in the other projects as well?

    If I were to indulge in one of these excellent projects right now, of those that have some kind of release, which one would you personally recommend to me?
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  20. #20
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: IB: SAI-ALEX Roman Unit Roster Revisions - Palatina

    Quote Originally Posted by Dansk viking View Post
    Ah, fair enough. I haven't visited the IB forums for like a decade, so I'm a bit out of tune with how things are being developed... Will this great diversity of units be used in the other projects as well?

    If I were to indulge in one of these excellent projects right now, of those that have some kind of release, which one would you personally recommend to me?
    Well a BETA release of RO is fairly close, then I can work on the Constantine mod which in many ways is an extention of the RO mod so shouldn't take nearly as long to complete as RO has taken. SO I would sit tight to RO. Believe me you won't be disappointed.

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