Medieval Warships Research

[Slytacular]

Please post any 13th to early 15th century warships that were used in the Medieval Era. Provide any pictures and descriptions of where each warship comes from, how it was made, how it was used in war, and the reason why the warship may have existed (if any specifics). I'll be attempting to create warships for the mod sometime in the future, so a gathered source of information and links would be extremely helpful!

[You_Guess_Who]

If you read French, http://www.navistory.com have many good pictures.

You can see Gaelic Birlinn/Long Fhada used by Scots and the Irish here:
http://www.bobmarshall.co.uk/portfol...and_galley.asp
The Nordic influence can be clearly seen. Basically, they were Longships which have rudder insted of steering oars. They were used till the 17th century, far after the Norse ceased to use longships.

Arabic Shalandiyyat:

When the Arabs have to build a fleet to fight the Eastern Romans at sea, they tap into the existing shipbuilding tradition of Syria and Egypt, which previously were under Eastern Roman rule. The name itself derived from greek Chelandion - Large Dromons. It were generally higher sided than Eastern Roman ships, as the Arabs relied more on boarding actions, with fore, middle, and aft castle as integral part of the hull.
By the Mod's timeframe, the Italian style galleys would be much more dominant in the Mediterranean (post 11th Century), but I think there's nothing bad of including this one.
For comparison sake, here's the heavy dromon model from the game:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Basically, a slight remodel of the bow, and replacing the square sails with triangular lateen ones. Perhaps add midcastle.

[Slytacular]

Thank you for sharing!

[tryadelion]

aragonese/catalan/occitan commerce / warship , also known as Coca. they had different sizes, the bigger being big warships.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[akd]

aragonese/catalan/occitan commerce / warship , also known as Coca. they had different sizes, the bigger being big warships.

coca = cocha = cocca = cog





Details of fresco by Spinello Aretino painted 1407-1408 depicting a naval battle between Venetians and Germans at Punta San Salvatore off the coast of Sicily.

Ivory model of Venetian merchant cog circa 1270 AD:

http://www.ivorybuyer.com/?page=collection&vessel=49



13th C. Byzantine galley

[You_Guess_Who]

Russian Lodya

http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/korabliend/str_18.htm

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

We can again see the Nordic Longship influence in these - Which is of course understandable with the Rus.

The old Medieval 2 also featured them. Here's M2TW illustration:

[finix]

http://andreamodesti-art.blogspot.bg...val-ships.html

[Sir_Pee_Alot]

You maybe find something nice on this site: http://www.karwansaraypublishers.com...ieval-warfare/

[Pinarius]

some replicas of ships from Medieval times:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havhin...ra_Glendalough
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamper..._(schip,_1998)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremer_Kogge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_von_L%C3%BCbeck
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notorious_(ship)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_(ship)

[You_Guess_Who]

Some perhaps helpful sites:
http://www.cogandgalley.com/search/l...&by-date=false
http://wargamingmiscellany.blogspot....-museum_2.html
http://militaryhistory.x10.mx/shippi...lleys%2001.htm
http://militaryhistory.x10.mx/shippi...lleys%2002.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/ga4/guilmar...Appendix6.html
http://hist.science.free.fr/storie/W...zia/index2.htm

Mediterranean Galleys

The good thing is, that the basic configuration wasn't changed much through the medieval to the renaissance, so later galleys would resemble earlier galleys. There were some developments, obviously.

Earlier on, circa 12-13th Century, a new system were introduced. Previously, rowers were positioned on upper-lower tiers of benches just like in the biremes and triremes Antiquity; in the Terzaruolo system, two or more rowers sit on one diagonal bench, each pulling their own oars (so each oarsmen held one oars each, the alla sensile system) The diagonal bench allows the rowerss to be positioned in only one tier instead. In the 14th Century, Galleys were made with outriggers called Apostis, which provides additional leverage. It consequently can also be covered with planking to give protection to the rowers, or make a fighting deck on both sides of the vessel in addition of even more rower protection. This means much wider profile.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This model is a good representation of Terzaruolo system, with oars rowing in alla sensile. This particular model have no raised Arrumbada, but have Apostis that give the rowers horizontal cover. Notice how the oars are grouped in three, this is essentially a trireme, but the three rowers sitting in one shared tier of bench.

Then, in late 15th to early 16th Century, to make use of cheaper forced oarsmen of lower quality, the alla scaloccio was used on bigger ships. In this system, up to 5 rowers on a single bench pull a single shared oar. With this system, one skilled oarsman per oar guide the less skilled oarsmen that provides additional power.

Well, first things first, images from wikipedia:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Some models:
https://www.modelshipmaster.com/prod...t/venetian.htm
http://www.agesofsail.com/ecommerce/...ury-b-c-1.html
http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/a-sas...galleybody.htm

The Ottoman Kadirga at Istanbul's Naval Museum (Photo 19-22)
http://howtoistanbul.com/en/istanbul...98#prettyPhoto

I'll post images of Attila's own Dromonarion model in-game later when I get my hand on the PC.
It pretty much already good enough to depict a small early medieval mediterranean galliot. But for later galleys, it need the addition of longer prow, Arrumbada on the bow, and Apostis making it much wider. Larger Galleys uses the same general configuration.

[Sulfurion Blackfyre]

Don't forget the Portuguese Caravel, which was already in use in the 1400's.

[You_Guess_Who]

How about the naval rosters? Please, give your ideas as well for:

Italian Navy
Eastern Roman-Greek Navy
Muslim Navy
Spanish-Portuguese Navy
French-English Navy
North-Baltic Navy
Celtic Navy
Kievan Navy

I made a big one for all of them, but thanks to copy-paste mistake, all goes to the drain...here's what that get saved fortunately:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Italian Navy
Early


Galliot, Italian Light Marines (Light Assault)
Galliot, Italian Crossbow Marines (Light Skirmisher)
Galia Sottil, Italian Assault Marines (Medium Assault)
Galia Sottil, Italian Crossbow Marines (Medium Skirmisher)
Galia Grande, Italian Heavy Assault Marines (Heavy Assault)
Castled Galia Grande, Italian Heavy Assault Marines (Heavy Assault, Galley Fighting Castle)
Nef, Italian Armed Merchantmen (Ranged-Defensive Melee, Sailing Transport)


Late


Galliot, Italian Light Marines (Light Assault)
Galliot, Italian Crossbow Marines (Light Skirmisher)
Cannon Galliot, Italian Arquebus Marines (Light Skirmisher, 2 Swivel Guns)
Cannon Galia Sottil, Italian Assault Marines (Medium Assault, 1 Bowchaser Culverin)
Cannon Galia Sottil, Italian Crossbow Marines (Medium Skirmisher, 1 Bowchaser Culverin)
Cannon Galia Sottil, Italian Arquebus Marines (Medium Skirmisher, 1 Bowchaser Culverin)
Cannon Galia Grande, Italian Heavy Assault Marines (Heavy Assault, 1 Bowchaser Culverin, 2 Bowchaser Falconet)
Cannon Galia Grande, Italian Arquebus Marines (Heavy Ranged, 1 Bowchaser Culverin, 4 Swivel Cannons)
Nef, Italian Armed Merchantmen (Ranged-Defensive Melee, Sailing Transport)
Caravel, Italian Arquebus Marine (Light Sailing Warship, Defensive Marines, 6 Falconet)


Greek-Eastern Roman Navy
Early

Dromonarion, Byzantine Light Marine (Light Assault)
Dromonarion, Byzantine Archer Marine (Light Skirmisher)
Fire Siphon Dromonarion, Roman Light Marine (Flamethrower Ship)
Dromon, Byzantine Assault Marines (Medium Assault)
Dromon, Byzantine Archer Marines (Medium Skirmisher)
Fire Siphon Dromon, Byzantine Heavy Marines (Flamethrower Ship)
Castled Chelandion, Byzantine Heavy Marines (Heavy Melee, Dromon Fighting Castle)
Castled Chelandion, Byzantine Archer Marines (Heavy Ranged, 3 Scorpio)
Nef, Greek Armed Merchant (Ranged-Defensive Melee, Sailing Transport)

[zsimmortal]

Late


Galliot, Italian Light Marines (Light Assault)
Galliot, Italian Crossbow Marines (Light Skirmisher)
Cannon Galliot, Italian Arquebus Marines (Light Skirmisher, 2 Swivel Guns)
Cannon Galia Sottil, Italian Assault Marines (Medium Assault, 1 Bowchaser Culverin)
Cannon Galia Sottil, Italian Crossbow Marines (Medium Skirmisher, 1 Bowchaser Culverin)
Cannon Galia Sottil, Italian Arquebus Marines (Medium Skirmisher, 1 Bowchaser Culverin)
Cannon Galia Grande, Italian Heavy Assault Marines (Heavy Assault, 1 Bowchaser Culverin, 2 Bowchaser Falconet)
Cannon Galia Grande, Italian Arquebus Marines (Heavy Ranged, 1 Bowchaser Culverin, 4 Swivel Cannons)
Nef, Italian Armed Merchantmen (Ranged-Defensive Melee, Sailing Transport)
Caravel, Italian Arquebus Marine (Light Sailing Warship, Defensive Marines, 6 Falconet)

How late is the mod going? Even as late as 1453, the navies didn't mount cannons on Galleys (at least, not in any signifcant amount of them). I think the structure of Galleys was altered later on to accomodate cannons. The Italians did have amazing ship crews so Genoa and Venice should have the best ships in the game, with crossbowmen skirmish ships and well-armed assault marines.

[You_Guess_Who]

How late is the mod going? Even as late as 1453, the navies didn't mount cannons on Galleys (at least, not in any signifcant amount of them). I think the structure of Galleys was altered later on to accomodate cannons. The Italians did have amazing ship crews so Genoa and Venice should have the best ships in the game, with crossbowmen skirmish ships and well-armed assault marines.

You got a point. Large Cannons were started more on around 1470-80s, with smaller and simpler cannons several decade earlier from that. This mod end date was 1453? or was it 1492? So cannon ships need to be rare, yeah.

Italians should have great quality sailors, enabling their galleys became the fastest and the most maneuvreable galleys in the Mediterannean. However, they didn't have the big manpower pool like their counterparts, so their marine numbers should be rather small but skilled. In comparison, The Spanish or the French cannot afford to man their galleys with crews as skilled, so they pack more marines to their more cumbersome galleys. The Turks were somewhere in between - capable of enlisting lots of rowers.

The Concept I would like to be applied:

Galleys vs. Sailing Ships

Galleys would have short campaign movement radius, but very agile at Battle Map-They'll be able to run circles around sailing ships. The Marine onboard would be more agressive, with big charge bonus and big melee attack - boarding in galley warfare was a bloody affair, the losing sides tend to sustain much worse casualty rate to the victor.

Sailing Vessels, on the other hand, have enormous campaign movement radius, but incredibly sluggish at Battle Map (too bad, the Wind Compass and Wind speed cooficient disappeared on Rome 2 and Atilla). The Marines would be more defensive with miniscule charge bonus but very good melee defense - Sailing vessels tend to be taller than rowing vessels, and this give great advantage for the marines at sailing vessels taking potshots and knocking off boarders. Most in-game should have a Tower as a standard. The marines also tend to be more missile-capable.

Naval Artillery

Should not be effective as ship-sinkers, they were more of anti-personnel (except for fire siphons/large caliber cannons). Should be rather rare, not as ubiquitous as in Attila nor Rome 2. Artillery projectiles should have "distrupt rower" effect when hit, slowing down the hit vessel.

[Slytacular]

The timeline for the game is still being discussed, and the game may be pushed to 1500 or 1492, but its currently set at 1453. I know the English started using culverins on their warships around 1600 from what I read, but I think other regions started earlier. I don't remember when the Italians started using cannons on their warships, but I'll have to look it up.

[You_Guess_Who]

I know the English started using culverins on their warships around 1600

Um, Elizabeth I died in 1603. The Spanish Armada was 1588. Ships of her dad's time already carried dozens of cannons. It gotta be earlier than then.

[+Marius+]

Um, Elizabeth I died in 1603. The Spanish Armada was 1588. Ships of her dad's time already carried dozens of cannons. It gotta be earlier than then.

The first recorded(as far as I know) use of cannons on ships was at the battle of Arnemuiden, 23 September 1338.

This is what such ships looked like at the time;

[zsimmortal]

The timeline for the game is still being discussed, and the game may be pushed to 1500 or 1492, but its currently set at 1453. I know the English started using culverins on their warships around 1600 from what I read, but I think other regions started earlier. I don't remember when the Italians started using cannons on their warships, but I'll have to look it up.

I remember reading about ships bombarding coastal forts around the time of the conquest of Constantinople (it might be from a later Venice-Ottoman war), but I'm really not ready to confirm it, as I distinctly recall reading that the Genoans and Venetians didn't use them on their ships in the defense of the city, relying on their expertise over the Ottoman numbers in 1453. I'll have to look further into it, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't until the larger Galleys came to be constructed that Galleys could withstand the blast of the cannons.

[Moon_Man]

I do not think we will be seeing any sort of powder based weaponry in this mod, is there a way to compromise with weaponry in later ships?

[Slytacular]

We have gunpowder weapons working.