Discussion about the state of pike units in DEI 1.1

[KAM 2150]

Well, then I see no reason for extra work, player must simply not cheat and be honest. Also pike phalanx was actually very good at manouvering, which is one of the things we miss for most of ancient armies. For example at Battle of Gaugamela, Alexander noticed that his right wing was exactly at the center of Persian lines so he moved his army faster then Darius was able to move his, even though his units were lighter and not in so strick formation.

No, it is not possible to make deaths of those guys to impact unit. Pike phalanx already has the highest penalty for flanking and rear attacks, since their base defence is lowered to 0.5 of base value and shield is not counting during rear attacks.


I am trying different ideas for pikes but so far all efforts made them more OP you like I predicted.

[Alma69]

Well, then I see no reason for extra work, player must simply not cheat and be honest. Also pike phalanx was actually very good at manouvering, which is one of the things we miss for most of ancient armies. For example at Battle of Gaugamela, Alexander noticed that his right wing was exactly at the center of Persian lines so he moved his army faster then Darius was able to move his, even though his units were lighter and not in so strick formation.

No, it is not possible to make deaths of those guys to impact unit. Pike phalanx already has the highest penalty for flanking and rear attacks, since their base defence is lowered to 0.5 of base value and shield is not counting during rear attacks.


I am trying different ideas for pikes but so far all efforts made them more OP you like I predicted.

Its about mainly MP in mind.

I'm little confused now. So pike are supposed to be in your mode in formation all the time, or they are supposed in your vision to have speed of light and medium infantry? Twice times faster then hoplite or cohorts?
Taking quick look at Guagamela show that we even don't now what troopers Darius had? Some archeos say about full cav, others about more inf. But for sure Darius most infantry was of bad quality, maybe could have even some problems at commanding those. Could you provide source, repeated examples of pike blocks outmaneuvering other formations, across the ages of use of this type of formation. While swiss and landsknechts pike blocks indeed reported exceptional relative speed at charging there are examples that those formations were outmaneuvered by rodeleros. Seams that the thing is that they could have not bad speed at moving or charging at a strait line, but circumstances that would require heavy maneuvering, turning, changing direction would put them at disadvantage, as many other examples from encounters with Rome seams to show.
All other sources that I have seen, about pike block formation, suggest that this formation could be out outmaneuver and beated by other more mobile formations in the right circumstances.
Pike block while not a turret by all means, by definition is not the most maneuverable formation around the battlefield. Of course skill and discipline would relatively dramatically influence speed of such a formation and this could be nicely be simulated in our Rome II. More elite units could be faster to maneuver on the field, while noobs would slower as they struggle to maintain formation itself. But in my judge, definitely not to the level of some light formations. This concept I think is quiet over interpreted and not supported enough.

[Miri82]

Dont change nothing....pikes are ok....battle time is ok....melee is ok...morale is ok...dont change nothing...��

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Hey guys..
I have studied this thread carefully and after some testing I ended up increasing the length of pike to 3 from 2.5 (not a complex solution and I think KAM will find something more elegant)
With this setting and battle difficulty at normal I have seen medium Carthaginian pikemen to beat early roman legionaries with some effort and I really like that result.
But I used pikemen offensively as KAM suggested.

So I'm gonna stick with this for a while,just change the length to 3 use then offensively and you'll see great results.

Cheers

[GranPandarino]

Hey guys..
I have studied this thread carefully and after some testing I ended up increasing the length of pike to 3 from 2.5

Just tried this and can confirm that low tier pikes are now able to hold their own against other low tier sword units.
Maybe increasing the reach of pikes to 3 or 3.5 and decreasing their damage to 10 can help pike units out; as of their current state hoplites of equal level are better as an anvil unit than pikes.

[Ygraine]

Hey guys..
I have studied this thread carefully and after some testing I ended up increasing the length of pike to 3 from 2.5 (not a complex solution and I think KAM will find something more elegant)
With this setting and battle difficulty at normal I have seen medium Carthaginian pikemen to beat early roman legionaries with some effort and I really like that result.
But I used pikemen offensively as KAM suggested.

So I'm gonna stick with this for a while,just change the length to 3 use then offensively and you'll see great results.

Cheers

Increasing length slightly is really the best way to balance them. No other stats need to be changed.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Increasing length slightly is really the best way to balance them. No other stats need to be changed.

Yep...
That was the only think I changed...

Cheers

[Yamamuro]

Increasing length slightly is really the best way to balance them. No other stats need to be changed.

Agree.

[Alma69]

How about increasing reach and hit chance. So they would not be penetrated AS easy.

[eferos93]

Here's the link to my submod that revisits the pikes: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ated-31-10-15)

[Aeimnestus]

How do pike units perform vs hoplite units? As historically they were basically designed to beat those. As long as they can reliable do that, I don't mind pike units being somewhat weak vs sword units.

[KAM 2150]

Pikes beat hoplties of the same level.

[Progeny]

What kind of scrub turns off formation attack? Amidst all the tremendous screaming and yelling during Rome II's initial launch phase, I'm pretty sure the broken state of the formation attack setting was clearly pointed out many times almost 3 years ago on at least CA's official forums....

[KAM 2150]

Not at all.

[KAM 2150]

I took out formation attack for all units in 1.2 release. Pikes and hoplites have reworked formations which not only look neat but also work nicely.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

I took out formation attack for all units in 1.2 release. Pikes and hoplites have reworked formations which not only look neat but also work nicely.

Hey KAM.
Good to know.Can't wait.
Cheers