Discussion about the state of pike units in DEI 1.1

[SquirrelP0acher]

Pikes do seem a little underwhelming so far in my macedonian campaign. My suggestion would be to lower weapon damage by 1 or 2 perhaps but increase weapon_length back to 4 and increase weapon deadliness (ap_damage) to 1 for normal/levy pikes and 2 for elites. This way the killrate should be pretty low but a prolonged battle from the front should see the pikes winning most of the time due to the ap damage.

[KAM 2150]

That would make them more OP then ever. They already win frontally over time.

Anyway, sounds like it is the time for new experimwntal pack; P

[SquirrelP0acher]

That would make them more OP then ever. They already win frontally over time.

Anyway, sounds like it is the time for new experimwntal pack; P

Yea, just tried it with Elites instead of levies pikes and it got ridicolous perhaps an even lower weapon damage might do the trick.

EDIT: After going back to the 1.1 defaults, only increasing weapon length from 2.5 to 3 and ap_damage to 1 seemed really decent. My pikes did noticeably better but I still lost. So I might stick with this.

[Alma69]

Edit: I´m reworking pikes for a personal submod of mine, I´d like to change pike phalanx into permanent and make them unable to run.
Sadly, the "can´t run" passive isn´t working, could anyone tell me how to do this?

Take a look at Rome Total Realism Mode. Currently pikes there are far too weak, but few concepts works there well, specially considering your request.
They run very slow. So perhaps totally unable to run is not that needed. Other good thing is that charge range is very short, so the issue that whole unit draw they sword and charge in to enemy and draw pikes in contact is less of the issue.
I too, find concept of fast running pike blocks inaccurate and annoying.

The fact is that we just don`t know all much about pikes in ancient, but we know probably more about use of the pike in other periods.
Rensens Landsnechts coming first. Human is a same human in all times and things work same everywhere and in every time. I think we can take big share deducting how it was working in ancient watching closely other periods where pike is coming back.
Renesans famouse Landsknecht pike blocks was not a defensive formation, only used to "hold opfor in place" and "pike is a low damage weapon" this whole concept imo is very missed and as I seen is a popular view on this forum.
Landknecht was very offensive formation, super strong frontally but caina slow, vulnerable to range attack and very vulnerable to flanking. See Fields of Glory and Pike&Shot how they treat pike blocks in their games.
edit. Should add that pike block is very vulnerable to disorganization of course as well, which can be result of flanking or missile attack and disorganized pike block is a dead pike block.

[KAM 2150]

That is what I always try to preach, pike is an offensive weapon. All explained in battle preview video.

[Miri82]

I'm greatly satisfied with the result of Kam's battle changes.

If you put a line with pikes and protect their flanks meanwhile you attack with the pikes, you will see a great battle.

My last one lasted for almost half hour ...and pikes take lots of damage, but i finally won.

I think that one units of armoured noble warriors against one unit of pikes could inflict great damage to pikes.

Pikes objective against armoured peopple could be the neck and the legs???....but if the enemy knows that, must be not a impossible task to protect her weak points...

[Smiling Hetairoi]

I'm greatly satisfied with the result of Kam's battle changes.

If you put a line with pikes and protect their flanks meanwhile you attack with the pikes, you will see a great battle.

My last one lasted for almost half hour ...and pikes take lots of damage, but i finally won.

I think that one units of armoured noble warriors against one unit of pikes could inflict great damage to pikes.

Pikes objective against armoured peopple could be the neck and the legs???....but if the enemy knows that, must be not a impossible task to protect her weak points...

We have historical eye witness accounts mentioning how the Macedonian sarisa would pierce the shields and armor of Romans.

[Cirrak]

I don't really know what to say here. I'm not entirely satisfied with how pikes work, with units running right through the pikes, but I understand that KAM, with his knowledge of how the mechanics work, has done what he could to balance it properly. My question to KAM would be, even if it makes pikes a tad too strong from the front, is it possible to make enemies start getting caught on the pikes again?

Please don't misunderstand my post. I greatly appreciate all of your work on the combat mechanics. 1.1 combat is leaps and bounds better than 1.0 IMO.

[KAM 2150]

I have idea of actually increasing pike damage to give it almost one hit kill ability but nerfing its melee attack so super low values so in theory it should give pike phalanx more constant kills. Lowering damage of pikes does not help as it simply delays lawnmover effect of pikes.

[Maetharin]

I have idea of actually increasing pike damage to give it almost one hit kill ability but nerfing its melee attack so super low values so in theory it should give pike phalanx more constant kills. Lowering damage of pikes does not help as it simply delays lawnmover effect of pikes.

How does this play out when combined with smaller radii in battle_entities and tighter pike formation?
(BTW, it makes them look badass^^)

I am trying different ideas for pikes but so far all efforts made them more OP you like I predicted.

Have you looked at eferos93´s submod and how it worked, and more specifically how it works with what both you and I suggested respectively?

Best regards

[zonks40]

I hadn't encountered pikes yet in any of my games so I thought I would load up a couple of custom battles to see what this is all about.
Set a Early Roman force up against a mix of 8 Carthaginian and libyan pikes, some cavalry and a few skirmishers, me playing as the Romans.

1st battle the pikes didn't fair too well, and many of the soldiers who were visually in range to thrust were static, and because of the lower range of the pikes most of the pikemen were engaging with the sword.

2nd battle with the Pikes restored to pre 1.1, the Carthaginian pikemen absolutely destroyed the Romans, the Romans could hardly get close enough to land a blow.

So I would say that Pikes have been improved over 1.05, it is incredible the difference between before 1.1 and after with the exact same armies, I'm going to set the pikes somewhere in between and see how they fair.


Edit... Tried the pikes set at 3.5 and it played out much better, looked better and performed better, but were not dominating, the Romans won but at a higher cost than the 1st battle.

[Alma69]

Can I ask where I can edit pike units run speed?

[zonks40]

Can I ask where I can edit pike units run speed?

Pikes come under a few different categories, Light_heavy and medium_heavy, you go into the battle_entities table to change the walk/run speed, but in changing those categories, you will also change every other unit that shares the same category.

If you are referring to the run speed while in Phalanx formation, then the pike_wall_move_speed_modifier would need to be changed in the kv_rules_tables, currently it is set to 0.5, I imagine that represents half walk/run speed while in phalanx formation.

[Alma69]

Yeah that's why I couldn't find it. In RTR is has it own category, so run, charge etc. can be changed just for them.
Would be nice if you guys consider giving them separate category, so they can get different speed, and charge.

Or how about just change their category and move them to something heavier? Maybe would be easier. Thought, I could not change charge then, only for them.

[KAM 2150]

Pikes are divided into different categorioes from light to heavy here and they have spearate values for run,charge (unused by them due to formation) like any other units in the game. Additionaly pikes units have their own modifier of speed from their formation.

[Alma69]

They use charge, just with skill off and they charge just as any other sword unit in the game, Ai probably don't do this, but player can.
So which modifier do I need to change then, to slow them down?

[KAM 2150]

That one I know, but since the unit is meant to be in formation, then their charge is almost non usable value. Without formation turned on, they have the charge speed of any other medium unit, but their charge is not that high due to usage of small shields and short swords.

If you want to simply change speed of all pike units in formation, go into kv_rules, there is a pike_wall_move_speed_modifier so just edit the value next to it.

[Alma69]

And to change running speed without formation?
Unit is meant to be in formation all the time? So disabling it, is some sort of cheating? I suppose Ai is having those enabled all the time.
In RTR pikes have 0 charge range, so you can't charge, getting on speed opfor in full range of pikes ranks and then click formation while in melee.
Well, technically of course you still can, but is just not that efficient.

[KAM 2150]

Unit speed without formation is in battle_entities.

In theory it is ment to be in formation all the time as their defence is crap without it plus AI uses it all the time. Of course turning it off is no cheating, but turning on formation while in mid combat is a bit unrealistic and nothing can be done about it. It was possible to do so you can't turn if on in combat but then AI units were very often caught in melee before turning it, but mostly is was due to case that AI units were charging with swords and then they were unable to turn formation on.

I see no reason to give pikes 0 charge range as when they are in formation it does not work anyway.

[Alma69]

Yes, I see battle_entities folder, but I don't see pikes there. Just some general categories. So I suppose it can't be changed, without touching other units that share same category.
Charging zero range just prevent player to abuse and walk around mechanics. Closing to the enemy at the speed that should never have and then clicking formation in last second or even already in melee. If is meant to be in formation all the time, slower run speed prevent as well player to by pass mechanics and use run without formation so easily to move around field at speed that should not have. Yeah I know that Ai in Rome is bugged about pike formation, we had about similar subject conversation before.

While I got your attention, I would like to ask few more questions.
It is possible to mode that death of officers, standard bearers, champions, musicians, officer staff in the unit have some negative impact on the unit?
Its possible that pike formation have bigger then other formations negative bonus if attacked from the flank or rear? That one probably already in, if possible.