Discussion about the state of pike units in DEI 1.1

[Geffalrus]

@Reigner - Thanks! I'll try the arrow keys out. Weird how I never stumbled across that.

[zala]

Geffalrus use the arrow keys, just tap up a couple times with the unit selected.

Ok just reading through this thread and I saw this, this changes EVERYTHING, how have I played since launch and never thought or read on a forum about using this as a tactic? Thank you so much!

[Dresden]

Please remember to keep the conversation civil and refrain from name calling. Some posts a page ago had to be edited due to this reason.

[ThatWhichThinks]

I have been a beta tester for 1.1 and a user of the mod since at least version .7, and I can assure you that these pikes are the best balanced they have ever been in Rome 2.

They do exactly what pikes are supposed to do and their strengths are entirely historically plausible. As Kam has posted in the battle preview and in this thread, pikes are generally very strong in the early stages of combat but get worn down as time and fatigue takes its toll.

They now function more like hoplites did in earlier versions: they rack up kills and take some losses, and the elites are truly a force to be reckoned with, especially if flanks are protected.

Hoplites are now what pikes used to be: sure, they can hold a line, but they kill almost nothing.

If you are curious about how units could get through a pike wall, Kam posted an excellent video in the battle preview thread showing a fairly accurate movie portrayal of pike combat (16th century pikes, but same basic idea).

[KAM 2150]

Also dunno if people know that, but their is a sifference in pike combat performance depending if you want them to stay in place or give them attack order...

[Alannon]

My only issue with pikes is that I've little motivation to use them after I saw the enemy run through the pikes and get into sword combat with them. It looks ridiculous. In Attila it works better. Elite units beat pikes frontally, but pikes still manage to keep the majority of enemy soldiers away. It works well and looks great.

[FlashHeart07]

I cannot wait to hear all the nice suggestions on how to improve pikes. People have stated their critique now lets hear the solutions.

[Alannon]

Reduce their damage but increase their range? Or reduce defense skill so that when much fewer enemies get through, they deal more damage to the pikemen in melee?

[eferos93]

Hello, first I have to say that i love the Kam work on the battle system, but yes, I am also a bit dissapointed about the pikes (also beacause they are super expensive: one unit of phalangitai costs more or less 1000 + 250 unkeep) and the formation attack.

Therefore i made i small submod, ib which i changed the length of the pikes to 5, lowered the Impact_reflection_final_damage_modif. to 0.25 and i removed the formation attack to all units (battles look better, no more unit formations that slip).
As result:
-pikes keep the enemy at distance, but few still manage to pass through.
-light units will take heavy casualties vs pikes (seems logic that trying to pass through pikes naked or with small shields would be heavy in terms of causalties)
-heavy armoured units will take low casualties, only after long engagements
-you will still notice the difference between levy and elite pikes: if exposed to direct meelee pikes will suffer heavy causualties

I will soon post this submod in the forum so you can try it

[Geffalrus]

For my part, the move forward button mentioned earlier did make a difference for the performance of my pikes. A quick tap made the selected phalanx unit move a step or two forward, which looked ugly and I was very skeptical. But then my elite pikes got down to business, and I think the fact that there were now more of them in close proximity with the enemy started to speed things up. The elite pike successfully routed the militia hoplites in front of them before turning and flanking the garrison hoplites with a desultory poke (flank attacks by pikes still seem a bit buggy - probably a game engine thing). Will do more testing, but it does seem like there could be a noticeable difference in pike performance depending on whether or not they are given that move forward button command. Pretty sure it works less well with levy pikes due to their weaker stats overall.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

Here are some sources regarding the pike phalanx which offers an interesting read.
https://books.google.fi/books?id=FBT...0Atrax&f=false
http://www.ancientbattles.com/WAB_Su..._vs_Legion.htm

[Maetharin]

May I suggest a new solution? I´ve discussed pikes with KAM, during which he told me a little on how the engine managed them.
And just today I had a thought.

Since Pikes are the only weapons which actually use weapon length we could give pike units their own battle entities with reduced circle radius.
Thus we could increase the density of the formation and therefore concentrate the area which pikes can attack from.

Now by reducing attack by such a degree that, even though they use three times the weapons the enemy unit uses,
they would only be able to hit about the same amount, we could theoretically make pikes work like any other unit.

What´s your thoughts on my solution?

Edit: I´m reworking pikes for a personal submod of mine, I´d like to change pike phalanx into permanent and make them unable to run.
Sadly, the "can´t run" passive isn´t working, could anyone tell me how to do this?

[Alannon]

So long as pike phalanx feels like they're holding sarissa and enemies aren't able to just run through into a sword fight, it's great.

[KAM 2150]

Edit: I´m reworking pikes for a personal submod of mine, I´d like to change pike phalanx into permanent and make them unable to run.
Sadly, the "can´t run" passive isn´t working, could anyone tell me how to do this?

Permanent pike phalanx will crash the game during siege battles or not even start. At least if will for sure crash when you will order them to grab ram, climb the ladders etc.

[Maetharin]

Permanent pike phalanx will crash the game during siege battles or not even start. At least if will for sure crash when you will order them to grab ram, climb the ladders etc.

I know, I´d just like it for custom battles, I´d deactivate it for campaigns^^

[djvandyke]

I'm also dissapointed. Pike units unable to hold the enemy unit at range are not a pikes.
Love the mod and 1.1 but this needs an urgent fix.

[PrometheusTWC]

I'm also dissapointed. Pike units unable to hold the enemy unit at range are not a pikes.
Love the mod and 1.1 but this needs an urgent fix.

I don`t get that people like you can`t phrase things politely....

and @Kam: I thinkyou did a great job and pikes work just fine, if you manage to protectthem from missiles and their flanks with other units they are still beasts, just not as op as they used to be.

[KAM 2150]

So far only two persons had made any real suggestions (efeor and Maetharin), I will try to test them tomorrow.

For the rest, here are things you must consider/test before your idea can really work for all:

-frontal combat defence vs infantry
-frontal combat defence vs and cavalry
-flank defence vs infantry
-flank defence vs cavalry
-rear defence vs infantry
-rear defence vs cavalry
-frontal defence vs missiles
-rear and flank defence vs missiles
-killrates in long run
-killrates in short run
-killrates vs light units
-killrates vs heavy units
-killrates when pike unit is flanking
-killrates where few phalanx units fight with flanks supported
-morale when lossing too many troops
-killrates and death ratio whithout attack order
-killrates and death ratio with attack order given
-how AI performs with pikes
-are pikes OP in hands of player?
-do pikes allow for the player to hold idefinite time over superior troops?
-do single pike units is able to hold off entire AI stack in a gate?
-are AI pikes a threat?
-do pikes work as a fixing force or maybe they are being fixed by other units due to low killrates?
-do pikes go from zero kills to killing legionares by dozens?

Probably not all, but I think that is it. If you idea does not work at least partially in one of those, then you haven't found anything better to my current system and visual passing over pike line is the price I can pay.

[Moonflower]

All I know is that wikipedia reference had me dying.

[Best2nd]

Pikes are good... Unless you are playing against a human...

I once made a MP submod and tried to make pikes not suck and not OP at the same time... It didn't work... So I left them sucky even with 5 range...