Discussion about the state of pike units in DEI 1.1

[Geffalrus]

@TheRazaman - That's a good point about the increasing size of the sarissa. I would really like to see some Larpers try it out on a field somewhere to see how different sizes worked in a more practical fashion.

We can certainly agree that bending space time to see Alexander the Great face Scipio Africanus on the field of battle would be a glorious thing. Still, I would not be too hard on Alexander's successors. Personally, I am of the opinion that the Roman advantage over Macedon and the Seleucid Empire were more strategic than tactical. The Romans survived numerous defeats at the hands of Hannibal, while the Macedonians and Seleucids had to call it quits after one major defeat apiece. The Romans could simply afford to put more armies in the field than the Successor States. The loyalty of the Italian states were a good reason for this - half of an army would be made of Italian legions and most of the cavalry would be Italian alae. This took a lot of the pressure off of the Roman population when it came to levying soldiers. The Successor States, on the other hand, were not as able to translate their non-Macedonian populations into reliable heavy infantry. The Seleucids could count on around 20-30,000 Macedonian settlers to make up their heavy infantry - the Romans alone could put double that amount into the field, and then double that again for the Italian Allies. Had the Macedonians added Thracians and Illyrians to the phalanx during Philip's reign instead of Perseus, or the Seleucids successfully tapped their "Asiatic" subjects for phalanx service, things might have been different. Probably not. The Successor States had quite a number of other structural problems that made them relatively easy prey for the Roman Republic.

[Geffalrus]

@Tyso - Dude, calm down. Levy and medium pikes work just fine. They hold pretty well, but are not invincible from the front. We're all in agreement. Some of us, however, think that the Elite Pikes are not pulling their weight. We also think it's pretty weird to see every unit easily breach the pike wall (slight oversimplification). Kam has explained why that is necessary, so, you know, whatever. Still, the Elite Pikes should be a bit better at killing things from the front, otherwise, there's not much point in buying them. Regular pikes hold long enough for flanking as is, without being overpowered. Elite Pikes should give us the option to do other things with our Companions besides hammer/anvil. Again, it's all about the cost - currently, I don't quite think the Elite Pikes are earning their keep. This is not a massive major issue - it's a tweak. And if Kam thinks there's no way to fix it, then there's nothing we can do. But it won't change the feeling that they're under-performing a bit.

[Tyso3]

Seriously guys , The pikes cannot be impenetrable, nor were they in real life despite popular belief. If they were, The Successor Kingdoms would never have fallen.


If Kam makes the pikes like you all want, the AI will NEVER win, ever. And then you will all come back and whine at KAM for making the battles too easy. The pikes work good and strong, but if your stupid enough to try and win a battle using pikes alone, you deserve to take losses. Pikes are merely the holding force to pin the enemy in, allowing your Light/Heavy inf to flank or your cav to flank.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

Seriously guys , The pikes cannot be impenetrable, nor were they in real life despite popular belief. If they were, The Successor Kingdoms would never have fallen.


If Kam makes the pikes like you all want, the AI will NEVER win, ever. And then you will all come back and whine at KAM for making the battles too easy. The pikes work good and strong, but if your stupid enough to try and win a battle using pikes alone, you deserve to take losses. Pikes are merely the holding force to pin the enemy in, allowing your Light/Heavy inf to flank or your cav to flank.

But the AI rarely ever wins unless it has a massive advantage and the mod is already very easy. I can easily win with pikes but it's going to be much easier defeating AI pike units with the latest version.

[tivihong]

I smell strange sense of players pike cornering when facing Ai (j/k)

Pike can't be impenetrable and should not be impenetrable. If so i could just bring all pike and stress through the whole freaking map just for the fun of it . With the introduction of integrated phalanx formations to hoplites , pike is quite fast in comparison to hoplites and absolutely can take choke point much MUCH faster than hoplites .

Last but not least, i will do absolutely nothing to anyone who say pike can't hold a thing . Pls tell to those Illyrian noble spear and legionaries who stuck on those sarissas for 20 mins .

(Excuse me for my bad english)

Please abstain from offensive orders and the like.

lolIsuck

[tivihong]

Not enough post to edit! Stretch*

Also , with formation attack off , those pikes in the flank will get stabbed to death quite fast , thus minimizing their effectiveness from the front . Try to use 10 pikes in conjunction, you will see the miracle we normal people called "common sense for pike"

ALSO ! Pike was never meant to be 1v1 unit XD

[Chris P. Bacon]

I gotta agree with KAM powerful pikes make any pike using faction (aka about half of the factions in the game) a total snoozefest.

[Ygraine]

You got ranged units to deal with pikes. Their armour is nowhere near hoplite armour, and their hp is also usually lower.

[duskwarrior797]

I think many of the people complaining about pikes are making the issue bigger than what actually exists in the game. Sure, it looks silly in the game when soldiers can often slide past the pikes and force the pikemen to draw their swords, especially after a charge. But, I do believe pikes can still fend off units pretty well.

I briefly tested a Parthian late bodyguard unit, one of the heaviest shock calvalry in the game, against a unit of pezhetairoi (elite pikes) by charging the cav in the front. While the charge was not outright stopped, the pikes only took a few initial losses (4-5) before inflicting damage against the cav. Within a minute, 4 of my mounts were dead.

I really can't say anything about levy or standard pikemen, but I do know elites aren't worthless, as some here are trying to point out. Maybe a small pike length increase is warranted, but otherwise, I feel they may already be in a good position.

[Sotaklas]

Seriously Pikes work fine, what are some people on about ,maybe you are doing something wrong or expect ultimate soldiers?

[Smiling Hetairoi]

I think many of the people complaining about pikes are making the issue bigger than what actually exists in the game. Sure, it looks silly in the game when soldiers can often slide past the pikes and force the pikemen to draw their swords, especially after a charge. But, I do believe pikes can still fend off units pretty well.

I briefly tested a Parthian late bodyguard unit, one of the heaviest shock calvalry in the game, against a unit of pezhetairoi (elite pikes) by charging the cav in the front. While the charge was not outright stopped, the pikes only took a few initial losses (4-5) before inflicting damage against the cav. Within a minute, 4 of my mounts were dead.

I really can't say anything about levy or standard pikemen, but I do know elites aren't worthless, as some here are trying to point out. Maybe a small pike length increase is warranted, but otherwise, I feel they may already be in a good position.

Did you check my link? I have a picture where the Sarmatian bodyguard dealt large casualties in a frontal charge and the ensuing fight to a Pezhetairoi unit. It didn't go so well for the Parthian cataphract unit however in another test.

Seriously Pikes work fine, what are some people on about ,maybe you are doing something wrong or expect ultimate soldiers?

I'm doing nothing wrong besides pitting the best pike unit in the game against levy clubmen who manage to kill nearly a hundred Pezhetairoi. I understand the role of the pike units but I don't feel they perform well in comparison to other units.

[TheOrangeProject]

Did you check my link? I have a picture where the Sarmatian bodyguard dealt large casualties in a frontal charge and the ensuing fight to a Pezhetairoi unit. It didn't go so well for the Parthian cataphract unit however in another test.


I'm doing nothing wrong besides pitting the best pike unit in the game against levy clubmen who manage to kill nearly a hundred Pezhetairoi. I understand the role of the pike units but I don't feel they perform well in comparison to other units.

Maybe because you don't understand their role since you compare them to units which have a different role. Since you compare units out of their role which each other, following this "logic", archers are performing bad in meele in comparison to others units, hence archers are not working properly in meele. Conclusio: If you compare units out of their role which other better get a drink because the outcome will be rather strange.

What would you do if you charge a formation of pikes? Running straight into them or moving around them? What happens in the game if you don't have a proper line of units securing the flanks? Case closed.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

Maybe because you don't understand their role since you compare them to units which have a different role.

What would you do if you charge a formation of pikes? Running straight into them or moving around them? What happens in the game if you don't have a proper line of units securing the flanks? Case closed.

I'm charging units straight at the pikes and these units deal a fair amount of damage. But units not in formation attack tend to defeat the pike unit or decimate it. Pikes are an anvil unit but I believe that units such as hoplites or legionaries do a better job as anvils.

[TheOrangeProject]

I'm charging units straight at the pikes and these units deal a fair amount of damage. But units not in formation attack tend to defeat the pike unit or decimate it. Pikes are an anvil unit but I believe that units such as hoplites or legionaries do a better job as anvils.

So maybe pikes are just weak against units which have no formation? Which is more than reasonable since pikes rely on the fact that their flanks are secure. Units moving and acting loosley will be a risk to pikes since they can be surrounded and a 2meter pike in close combat is not that useful. There is nothing wrong with that. Switchting to swords on the other hand will be weakening the formation, which leads to more pressure at the front. (not talking about formation off button here.) Just because the game can't reflect this aspect visually properly doesn't mean it is wrong.

[Dresden]

Are you basing these on 1vs1 custom battle situations? That is not how we do battle balance and is a ridiculous way to judge a unit.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

Are you basing these on 1vs1 custom battle situations? That is not how we do battle balance and is a ridiculous way to judge a unit.

I created this thread due to my own experiences and what I've read from other users. I tested the Pezhetairoi unit mainly to see how effective it is and the results were not impressive. I feel that pikes underperform in 1vs1 custom battle tests and in the campaign. Saying that pikes are fine since you've won battles in the campaign is not a valid excuse since it's easy to win with any unit. You cannot be agressive in the same way with pikes as you can with other units due to the rather broken game mechanics in Rome 2 which leaves the pikes as a defensive unit (that doesn't mean I've never won battles by surrounding enemies with pikes). The thing is that pikes are not good at being a defensive unit imo.

[TheOrangeProject]

I created this thread due to my own experiences and what I've read from other users. I tested the Pezhetairoi unit mainly to see how effective it is and the results were not impressive. I feel that pikes underperform in 1vs1 custom battle tests and in the campaign. Saying that pikes are fine since you've won battles in the campaign is not a valid excuse since it's easy to win with any unit. You cannot be agressive in the same way with pikes as you can with other units due to the rather broken game mechanics in Rome 2 which leaves the pikes as a defensive unit (that doesn't mean I've never won battles by surrounding enemies with pikes). The thing is that pikes are not good at being a defensive unit imo.

Dunno what to say mate.

1v1 is not a valid comparison since it is not the job of the pike unit to perform 1v1. This is just not a good justification for your opinion. Pikes are good for certain tasks, like cav is good for specific task. Pikes are not supposed to be the best defensive unit. No unit is supposed to be the best unit in any area. If you want to make a point against pikes you have to show that they fail in the task they are supposed to fulfil.

Obviously you can not be as aggressive with pikes as with odrysians two handed guys. So what?

Btw you can press the move forward button to push enemys back. (At least it worked pre 1.1, have yet to try it out for 1.1)

[Geffalrus]

Btw you can press the move forward button to push enemys back. (At least it worked pre 1.1, have yet to try it out for 1.1)

Wait, what? What button is that? Is that different than just clicking attack again? I must know.

[Geffalrus]

Honestly, I'd settle for elite pikes being able to at least physically push a unit out of position. Probably not an option in the Rome 2 engine. Still, elite pikes - HISTORICALLY - were very powerful units able to shove Roman infantry around and were very resistant to missile fire. The DeI 1.1 version isn't dramatically off from that - there are just cases where I watch my elite pike sit for 10 minutes gently poking a militia hoplite to death. It's really the performance of the elite pike versus certain lower tier units that is a bit underwhelming. The elite pike should be a bit more of an attack unit than it currently is.

[Reigner]

Geffalrus use the arrow keys, just tap up a couple times with the unit selected.
Also, I didn't read this whole thread so maybe this has been suggested already, but -

One tactic I often use with pikemen is double or triple layering them. Spread them to 4 men deep, then literally lay multiple pike units on top of eachother so that the pikewall is immensely thicker. Keeps the bad guys out.

You can also have 2 units of pikemen at like 4 men deep, and put the 2nd unit immediately behind the first. This creates a 2nd pikewall that enemies have to pass through even after breaking through the 1st.

Usually if you try to move the units as a group, they automatically space themselves out, so you have to readjust them accordingly after movement.