Discussion about the state of pike units in DEI 1.1

[Smiling Hetairoi]

I decided to check how pike units were balanced in the new version and played a few custom games. Just a few quick games to see how they fared. The results were quite disappointing. Units attacking without formation attack would deal great casualties to even the Pezhetairoi from the front. I didn't take any pictures of the combat but everytime the enemy passed through the pikes and attacked the pikemen without a problem. Even cavalry does damage against pike units from the front. I'd like to have a polite discussion so cursing or name calling.
Here's the results from my testing:http://imgur.com/gallery/hgDwP/new

[VladoBlood]

I myself havnt done any testing but i base my infornmation on my ongoing athenian campaing. After finally ending a long war against epirus, (on VH) i had real troubles dealing with pikes myself and i had a couple defeats so they are definitly not weaker.
Based on the images you posted the ended up just as i would expect. Remember that pikes are there mostly to hold off charges from the front, cripple that mommentum and hold the line until flanking reinforcements arrive.
What i did notice change in 1.1 is that yes units are getting easier through the pikes but thats how is suppose to be, pikes are just a wall against charges really, after battle slows down, specially against high armored units with big shields, the units will get pass through them and cause them higher casualties as is suppose to be.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

I myself havnt done any testing but i base my infornmation on my ongoing athenian campaing. After finally ending a long war against epirus, (on VH) i had real troubles dealing with pikes myself and i had a couple defeats so they are definitly not weaker.
Based on the images you posted the ended up just as i would expect. Remember that pikes are there mostly to hold off charges from the front, cripple that mommentum and hold the line until flanking reinforcements arrive.
What i did notice change in 1.1 is that yes units are getting easier through the pikes but thats how is suppose to be, pikes are just a wall against charges really, after battle slows down, specially against high armored units with big shields, the units will get pass through them and cause them higher casualties as is suppose to be.

Except units pass through the pikes instantly. And isn't it recommended to play DEI on normal since balance becomes whack on higher difficulties?

[VladoBlood]

Except units pass through the pikes instantly. And isn't it recommended to play DEI on normal since balance becomes whack on higher difficulties?

Yes ahah it does, it gets whack but i like the added difficulty as an exp DEI and totalwar player.
On regards to the pikes its like Kams says if they function as just a wall then they would be too overpowered. The idea of their use is to have them in place but also have something to flank the enemy while they are in the fight. Another thing you should try is always leaving a few units to reinforce your phalanxs.

On a side note, have you only done custom battle testing or have you actually played with them on the campaing, and with which faction??

[Smiling Hetairoi]

Yes ahah it does, it gets whack but i like the added difficulty as an exp DEI and totalwar player.
On regards to the pikes its like Kams says if they function as just a wall then they would be too overpowered. The idea of their use is to have them in place but also have something to flank the enemy while they are in the fight. Another thing you should try is always leaving a few units to reinforce your phalanxs.

On a side note, have you only done custom battle testing or have you actually played with them on the campaing, and with which faction??

But pike units serve no function in the mod at the moment due to how weak they are. You could easily use hoplites or thorax swords instead of pikemen and do a better job.

[VladoBlood]

But pike units serve no function in the mod at the moment due to how weak they are. You could easily use hoplites or thorax swords instead of pikemen and do a better job.

Thats more of a matter of perspective and playstyle i would say. You will see that all faction that have heavy use of phalanxs like macedon or the seleucids also have access to either good shock cavalry or good light infantry all for the exact idea of flanking.

There are also many differences to consider between hoplites and phalanxes, cause if it where that way that hoplites where just much more effective alexander would re-train the entire macedonian army into that way of fighting instead to conquer have the world.

[Ygraine]

Except units pass through the pikes instantly. And isn't it recommended to play DEI on normal since balance becomes whack on higher difficulties?

You can solve this issue easily by increasing the range of pikes slightly by 1 or 2 points. Enemies will have a harder time getting to your pikemen.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

You can solve this issue easily by increasing the range of pikes slightly by 1 or 2 points. Enemies will have a harder time getting to your pikemen.

Where can I change this?

[KAM 2150]

Units must pass pikes for balance sake, all explained in details na battle preview and in countless posts.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

Units must pass pikes for balance sake, all explained in details na battle preview and in countless posts.

But what is the point of using pike units when even the best units lose great numbers of men to lowly clubmen and hastati in a frontal engagement?

[Soontir]

I played one battle as Seleucids against Rome using mixed line of thorax pikes and thorax legionaries. In the end both units had similar score in kills/deaths. Pikes held on losing few guys in first ranks.
I'm plaing on VH/H since 1.0 without issues. Diplomacy is reasonable as far as TW goes, units on both sides behave as expected and I don't have economic problems but I have to loose one third of my army in battle against enemy of similar strengh to my.

[Geffalrus]

And let's not forget that missile fire still does tremendous damage to pike units from the front, even elite ones. Levy pikes seem to be working just fine, but the elite pikes don't seem to have the oomph that they historically did. Basic pikes are just supposed to pin the enemy while you flank them. Elite pikes, on the other hand, really should be a bit better at crushing things frontally. The cost rebalance in 1.1 seems great to me, but it would be nice to get a more effective unit out of all the money one puts into the elite pikes. These are the guys who, historically, plowed through Roman legions, were impervious to missiles while in formation, and fought to the last man when surrounded. If the player wants to heavily invest in elite pikes, they should have some hope of winning a battle frontally unless they're facing equally elite infantry.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

But why use pikes for hammer and anvil tactics when other units are sturdier and do more damage? Hoplites are a great unit for example.

[KAM 2150]

But elite pikes beat any other elite troop frontally. Pikes units just get more casualties from other units during charge due to their own lack of charge and bugged anti charge defence bonus (which would make even levy pikes kill any charging infantry to 50-60% of their strength on contact).

Again, ALL that is explained in battle preview along with how game engine works. If anyone has a better idea how to make pikes NOT OP in hands of player while still usefull in hands of AI, then I am all ears.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

But elite pikes beat any other elite troop frontally. Pikes units just get more casualties from other units during charge due to their own lack of charge and bugged anti charge defence bonus (which would make even levy pikes kill any charging infantry to 50-60% of their strength on contact).

Again, ALL that is explained in battle preview along with how game engine works. If anyone has a better idea how to make pikes NOT OP in hands of player while still usefull in hands of AI, then I am all ears.

But I have supplied an album where it's clear to see that pike units lose to decent enemy units that are not using formation attack unless they are levy clubmen for example.

[KAM 2150]

But I have supplied an album where it's clear to see that pike units lose to decent enemy units that are not using formation attack unless they are levy clubmen for example.

In your album pretty much all pictures except one reinforced my statement that they beat anything frontally. If they get flanked or AI units move the the side, then they will of course take more casualties. Although in next fix I want to nerf infantry charge a bit so it will lower initial casualties of pikes.


And once again, PLEASE watch battle preview if you want to understand how game mechanics work for pikes (yes, game, not mod mechanics, which means the obstacles that are thrown on anyone who wants to do anything with pikes to make them realistic).

[Smiling Hetairoi]

In your album pretty much all pictures except one reinforced my statement that they beat anything frontally. If they get flanked or AI units move the the side, then they will of course take more casualties. Although in next fix I want to nerf infantry charge a bit so it will lower initial casualties of pikes.


And once again, PLEASE watch battle preview if you want to understand how game mechanics work for pikes (yes, game, not mod mechanics, which means the obstacles that are thrown on anyone who wants to do anything with pikes to make them realistic).

Yet in the album the pike units lose everytime the enemy unit isn't using formation attack unless it is a low quality unit but even then they take high casualties

[TheRomanRuler]

In other words

If anyone has a better idea how to make pikes NOT OP in hands of player

Easy

while still usefull in hands of AI.

Impossible.

[KAM 2150]

Exactly this Vlado.

Plus one more thing that was mentioned many times, 1v1 tests are not credible. Especially for pikes, since entire pike line attack AI units that try to focus on single unit, while they expose their flanks to other pikes. I often have more kill per pike squad in units that assist them, then in the units that do actual fighting.

Hetairoi, pikes beat hoplites in frontal combat and can even move faster.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

Exactly this Vlado.

Plus one more thing that was mentioned many times, 1v1 tests are not credible. Especially for pikes, since entire pike line attack AI units that try to focus on single unit, while they expose their flanks to other pikes. I often have more kill per pike squad in units that assist them, then in the units that do actual fighting.

Hetairoi, pikes beat hoplites in frontal combat and can even move faster.

Dear KAM, hoplites will lose to pike units if they are in formation attack. Take the hoplites out of formation attack and the pikes will lose.