What's up with the battles? Is this even DeI anymore? (Please forgive the hyperbole)

[Matmannen]

So yeah, the battles are ed. If you send two melee troops against each other the fight will be finished in a minute or two, additionally troops start wavering almost right after they have finished their charge. Basic archers can kill 10+ choosen Thureophoroi from the front in three vollies or less, life is indeed strange...

[thomas_r]

If battles are too fast for you, you should use this : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ted-for-1-1%29

Slower battles mod I hope it will help you

[Matmannen]

If battles are too fast for you, you should use this : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ted-for-1-1%29

Slower battles mod I hope it will help you

Thank you, DeI 1.1 seems more like Radius or Rome II at launch at the moment...

[thomas_r]

You just have to get used to it, personally in old version of DEI, I found battles way too long so I didnt like them.

Its true that battle are quick, but not that much than rome 2 vanilla. So it depends the taste I guess

[Hoplitus]

Ok, at some point I was expecting this...but it took two days which is a good sign I think

Yes indeed the pace and the way battles are played differ from previous version but I would not call them... well the way you called them. I had to get used to it in the first place as well but it turns out they are more challenging and especially more dynamic thus even more fun.

They don't feel unrealisticly arcardish like vanilla still and to answer the topic's question: Yes it still is DeI, taken to a whole-nother level. The rest I'll leave to KAM for explatation as he is the battle balance leader but I like his approach and agree with most of his changes!

EDIT:

Why is everybody so obsessed with battle length. I mean I don't want them to be super short either but a fun and challenging battle is not about length. For me they have to have a certain grade of realism which is not necessarily connected to length. And I want to add a screen of a battle fought in 1.1 (look at the time!!!!):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Matmannen]

Ok, at some point I was expecting this...but it took two days which is a good sign I think

Yes indeed the pace and the way battles are played differ from previous version but I would not call them... well the way you called them. I had to get used to it in the first place as well but it turns out they are more challenging and especially more dynamic thus even more fun.

They don't feel unrealisticly arcardish like vanilla still and to answer the topic's question: Yes it still is DeI, taken to a whole-nother level. The rest I'll leave to KAM for explatation as he is the battle balance leader but I like his approach and agree with most of his changes!

EDIT:

Why is everybody so obsessed with battle length. I mean I don't want them to be super short either but a fun and challenging battle is not about length. For me they have to have a certain grade of realism which is not necessarily connected to length. And I want to add a screen of a battle fought in 1.1 (look at the time!!!!):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think the issue is that people don't like click fests, what's the point of playing an epic battle is all you are going to experience is your mouse curser swoshing back and forth. When I downloaded DeI the first time I did it to AVOID the vanilla battles a la stress fest...

All explained in battle preview video. Battle length varries a lot now, especially on unit quality, all full stack battles during tests lasted from 10-20 minutes which is acceptable. 1v1 tests are not valid.

You missunderstand, it wasn't a one vs one test, it was two fresh troops meeting in a large battle; the first melee. They routed before I even had time to send more troops, that is they roughly fought for thirty seconds...

[KAM 2150]

All explained in battle preview video. Battle length varries a lot now, especially on unit quality, all full stack battles during tests lasted from 10-20 minutes which is acceptable. 1v1 tests are not valid.

[KAM 2150]

But this is not even near vanilla battles....In previous DeI biggest issue with battles was that no matter if you have elite hoplites or militia with sticks, they were able to hold off hundreds of other troops and you had only to charge your cav 50 times in the back to win....which was not the case in real battles. Once you notice that your levies can't hold ground long enough, you need to actually use tactics. And like others said and as my tests said, battles are pretty much as long as they were, with heavier armies going for 15-20 minutes.

[Matmannen]

But this is not even near vanilla battles....In previous DeI biggest issue with battles was that no matter if you have elite hoplites or militia with sticks, they were able to hold off hundreds of other troops and you had only to charge your cav 50 times in the back to win....which was not the case in real battles. Once you notice that your levies can't hold ground long enough, you need to actually use tactics. And like others said and as my tests said, battles are pretty much as long as they were, with heavier armies going for 15-20 minutes.

But you can't seriously mean that 250 Galatian swords charging into 250 karians is a melee that should be solved in 30 seconds or less is an acceptable out come...

EDIT: I will be diplomatic and state that the issue might be that skirmishers do too much damage from the front. I remember from that video you posted like two weeks ago you said that damage rnged damage was upped, but what if it is so much upped that they kind of wreck charging troops making them useless when they arrive?

[TheOrangeProject]

But you can't seriously mean that 250 Galatian swords charging into 250 karians is a melee that should be solved in 30 seconds or less is an acceptable out come...

EDIT: I will be diplomatic and state that the issue might be that skirmishers do too much damage from the front. I remember from that video you posted like two weeks ago you said that damage rnged damage was upped, but what if it is so much upped that they kind of wreck charging troops making them useless when they arrive?

Depending on the units it can be the case that battles are over in 30sec and there is nothing wrong with that. If the gap in skill, equip and charge is big enough a line will break really fast.

Besides that, your stated experience completly contradicts mine.

Also one should add, that there was a pool some time ago (last year december or so?) about battle length and if I remember correctly most people voted for 20-30min.

Range units are doing definitly more dmg, but is also depending on factors such as angle, shields and armor (or is armor completly meele? don't remember).

[Matmannen]

Depending on the units it can be the case that battles are over in 30sec and there is nothing wrong with that. If the gap in skill, equip and charge is big enough a line will break really fast.

Besides that, your stated experience completly contradicts mine.

Also one should add, that there was a pool some time ago (last year december or so?) about battle length and if I remember correctly most people voted for 20-30min.

Range units are doing definitly more dmg, but is also depending on factors such as angle, shields and armor (or is armor completly meele? don't remember).

When defending against ranged both shield and armour is acounted for:

Firstly the shield defence culculates a chance the ranged attacks will be deflected.

If the ranged attack isn't blocked by the shield, or the ranged attack can't be blocked due to the direction of attack, what hapens is a game of chance. If the armour is 35 a random number from 0 to 35 will be chosen, if this number is high then the attack value the nthe armour will block the ranged attack, if the block fails damage will be done to the unit...

[KAM 2150]

I did not have 30 seconds even while using Seleucid Basilikoi Thorakitai vs Suebi clubmen. Also 250 men? DeI has 300 men per units on max and 225 on large.

Light assault units will always end fight in 2-3 minutes, because well....they are light assault units which means heavy charge and attack with low armour and def. For example spartan hoplites against legionares can go for 10-15 minutes or even more.

[KAM 2150]

With ranged units (also explained in battle preview) is the other case, as in pre 1.1 DeI, AI ranged units were mostly killing from 5-15 units per squad which made them useless in hand of AI, while player was constantly doing "historical" mass missile flanking manouver. Now flanking damage is a bit nerfed but frontal damage is higher BUT ammo was also reduced so while it look like ranged units are much stronger, they will also shoot less.

[Hoplitus]

Ok at some you're not wrong, or make it positive, you are right! I don't like click fests either (but DeI is not) and it's a pity that I don't have the time to look at all the beautiful units during a fight anymore, just because I have to manage my troops on all flanks to not loose control over the battle.
But on the other hand battles are more challenging right now. And as KAM stated full stack battles can vastly vary depending on troop quality and position. If you encircle the enemy battles will be over quickly. But let your troops fight head-on with the enemy, only front to front and battles will still last long. Or take hoplites against hoplites frontally, they'll still need like ages to kill each other. This also makes troop choice more important!

I think KAM found (or at least is close to) the happy medium between stressy click fest and boring, over lengthy battles.

He aimed for more challenging battles and whether you like it or not he definitely achieved that goal!

Play more battles with different troops and try to get used to it and I think you'll also see the benefits of the new system!


EDIT:

Just wanted to add that I came to DeI way-back in 0.7 times when Selea did battle balance. And I came here for longer battles too. But I think the current system is superior to what we had before!

[Troubleshooter]

Odd, i use DeI 1.1 without any submods and found that battles between groups of heavy infantry devolve into drawn out slugging matches. Not as drawn out and slow as in 1.0, but definitely a heck of a lot better than vanilla Rome 2 or Attila. Watching fatigue and rotating out exhausted units is something to be mindful of, and so is keeping skirmishers in reserve to unleash flanking javelin volleys.

[gornoviceanu]

All I can say is keep HEAVY troops on the center line.. I find this unbelievably important for any of my lines to hold. I love the way heavy troops slaughter medium ones in a frontal clash although I think the battle speed could be toned down just a little bit. The effects of the battle system are VERY VERY positive on BAI, good work!

[Ygraine]

*cough cough*

I totally agree with Matmannen here.

With all due respect to KAM, the new battle balance just isn't classic DeI to me anymore as I learned to love & appreciate it. I started playing this mod in the early versions partially due to the awesome slower pace of battles. Unfortunately the majority of the team voted to have it in the main mod, while it was originally intended to be a submod.

[KAM 2150]

Final build is almost nothing like the one you used during testing phase Ygraine. And again, battles are as long as they were, but it depends on units quality. Also some units actually mean something now and AI is able to do anything.

Before this is pretty much how battles looked like:

1. As Germans - hold AI units in the center, flank with cavalry/archers, win
2. As Greek - hold AI units in the center, flank with cavalry/archers, win
3. As Romans -hold AI units in the center, flank with cavalry/archers, win
4. As anyone else -hold AI units in the center, flank with cavalry/archers, win

Now AI actually interupt you and add a lot more manouvers to do for player to win.

[Ygraine]

I had a completely different approach to increasing the difficulty of battles. Instead of increasing killrates I increased the amount of enemies by increasing AI income & increasing army caps. This means that now the AI will approach you with two or three armies instead of one. Which in turn means that you can't just flank/rearcharge a whole army any more - because there's 1-2 extra armies there supporting it.
For me this created a much more dynamic situation on the campaign map and at the same time presented quite a challenge in battles while also retaining the old classic balance/pace.

[ThatWhichThinks]

I had a completely different approach to increasing the difficulty of battles. Instead of increasing killrates I increased the amount of enemies by increasing AI income & increasing army caps. This means that now the AI will approach you with two or three armies instead of one. Which in turn means that you can't just flank/rearcharge a whole army any more - because there's 1-2 extra armies there supporting it.
For me this created a much more dynamic situation on the campaign map and at the same time presented quite a challenge in battles while also retaining the old classic balance/pace.

I feel like this approach to increasing difficulty is tedious and highly unrealistic. In this case, the only determinant of battle difficulty is how many units the enemy brings, which means that, as Kam and many other people on the forums (including myself) have pointed out: every battle with every faction will feel the same. Adding more enemy units or making every unit hold forever does not add challenge as much as it adds tedium and unnecessary battle time.

With Kam's new balancing enemy units are actually a threat. It is actually necessary to counter enemy skirmishers, you have to be careful of how you manage your main line so that it does not crumble, AI will counter and attack at the flanks (and rear, if you let it)...I could go on and on, but the idea is (as, again, Kam has pointed out time and time again) that now you will actually need to use different strategies to counter different army compositions.

The mixed arms approaches of Philip, Alexander, or Pyrhus are now viable and useful, the manipular formations of Rome now make sense, Celtic/Germanic infantry charges are actually effective, Parthian archers are formidable foes, and Carthage's mixture of light and mobile with some sturdy troops is actually starting to feel like a strength instead of the liability that it seemed for the last several versions of DeI.

The battles are more dynamic now. You can't just leave units out in the open and count on them to hold out until help arrives. To me at least, the way things play now is way more interesting than before. If it feels like too much of a clickfest, you can always pause the game to issue orders (at least against AI).