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Thread: Creative Assembly Business Practice Discussion Thread (Warhammer I & II)

  1. #41

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Modestus View Post
    People may find this an interesting, Fredrik Wester of Paradox.

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020872...The-Importance

    Note also that Paradox have on principle decided that no game will now be released in a state that is unfinished they will in fact delay that game instead until they are happy with its condition.

    Regards CA and again I must repeat myself......

    CA invested long term in the Warscape engine, it was intended to produce a number of games far into the future and while over the years it has been improved its ultimate goal was to allow CA to create a Total War world that would have higher production values but at the same time keep costs under control.

    OfficiallyDevin has suggested that having higher production values means you end up with less content which may be true in some cases but I would argue that Warscape was actually intended to counteract that phenomenon, the buyer would have higher production values but also have a familiar Total War with a reasonable amount of content at a relatively competitive price.

    Warscape was intended to automate the process of making a Total War game, a tool that would make life easier however I would argue that it had another perhaps unintentional effect and it turned the process of creating a Total War game into a production line and as I have said before production lines tend to be less adaptable, they are certainly an advantage if you wish to keep churning out basically the same thing but can put you at a serious disadvantage if you wish to do something more complicated.

    Perhaps more serious is that the design can become subservient to the requirements of the production line and more consideration is given to keeping the production line moving rather then retooling even if it would be wise to do so.

    Your now into the realm of workarounds and unsatisfactory fixes of course each iteration of the game is slightly better but you have now become as OfficiallyDevin put it a software company or as I prefer a production line and a sameness begins to permeate all of your games.

    People will of course argue that Warhammer must be different because of the variation among the different races but that is not necessary the case, models and animations are one thing game play is something else.

    And don’t be fooled by the Steam refund because all CA need to achieve with Warhammer is a level of mediocrity that makes people not want to lose their pre-order DLC which is of course why you have it in the first place.

    Perhaps CA have been struggling to get to a place where everything works and Warhammer will blow us away which will then mean that MTW3 could be amazing we will see.
    The steam refund is there if the game, for what you paid, is obviously not worth it. If the game is that bad we'll simply refund until it goes on sale and the chaos dlc + the base game probably costs less than $60. If the game isn't worth $75, I won't pay for the chaos DLC, this is pretty simple.

    I definitely agree Warscape seems to have hampered CA in some ways rather than liberated it. I still agree with Devin, as higher fidelity even aided by the Warscape engine, still costs more as the polygon counts right. Prices are going to have to either go up or DLC is going to be introduced, SEGA doesnt' consider CA a charity. Once again, simply buy only what you think is worth it. The refund system really helps in this way too if lets plays and community impression forum posts aren't enough.

  2. #42

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Interesting (not) conversation about CA business practices. Most of the thread is personal posts complaining about the CA forum.

    I personally have little interest the Warhammer world in any fashion but I sure don't understand the angst about what a company does with their intellectual property.
    "The trouble with facts is that there are so many of them." - Samuel McChord Crothers

  3. #43
    Modestus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidtheDuke View Post
    The steam refund is there if the game, for what you paid, is obviously not worth it. If the game is that bad we'll simply refund until it goes on sale and the chaos dlc + the base game probably costs less than $60. If the game isn't worth $75, I won't pay for the chaos DLC, this is pretty simple.

    I definitely agree Warscape seems to have hampered CA in some ways rather than liberated it. I still agree with Devin, as higher fidelity even aided by the Warscape engine, still costs more as the polygon counts right. Prices are going to have to either go up or DLC is going to be introduced, SEGA doesnt' consider CA a charity. Once again, simply buy only what you think is worth it. The refund system really helps in this way too if lets plays and community impression forum posts aren't enough.

    I think CA know there is a Steam refund but I would also imagine they assume most people wont use it especially if you have given CA your money 6 months earlier, eaten food is soon forgotten.

    Any figures for refunds from Steam?

    I am well aware that if you get your money back your not losing any money but that is not what will be at the centre of your decision to get a refund it will be the quality of the game and it is where the developer has the advantage.

    All they need to do is to make you unsure that you want your money back and the pre-order DLC will play its part by adding to that doubt because if you do refund it will seem as if your losing the money you saved on the pre-order.

    Bottom line if you want to stop pre-order DLC do not pre-order and they reason you may want to stop pre-order DLC is because its cut content, there should be no argument about this, day 1 DLC is cut content end of story.

    Its particularly glaringly in this case because not only is it 6 months before the game is released, its a major faction and its part of a trilogy so unless CA have the Trilogy finished I presume the Artists and programmers had something better to be doing then screwing their fans.

  4. #44

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Modestus View Post
    I think CA know there is a Steam refund but I would also imagine they assume most people wont use it especially if you have given CA your money 6 months earlier, eaten food is soon forgotten.

    Any figures for refunds from Steam?

    I am well aware that if you get your money back your not losing any money but that is not what will be at the centre of your decision to get a refund it will be the quality of the game and it is where the developer has the advantage.

    All they need to do is to make you unsure that you want your money back and the pre-order DLC will play its part by adding to that doubt because if you do refund it will seem as if your losing the money you saved on the pre-order.

    Bottom line if you want to stop pre-order DLC do not pre-order and they reason you may want to stop pre-order DLC is because its cut content, there should be no argument about this, day 1 DLC is cut content end of story.

    Its particularly glaringly in this case because not only is it 6 months before the game is released, its a major faction and its part of a trilogy so unless CA have the Trilogy finished I presume the Artists and programmers had something better to be doing then screwing their fans.
    I'm more than willing to pay an extra $15 if the Warhammer game suddenly becomes fantastic enough to pay for the chaos DLC. However I suspect if I'm driven enough to refund the game, I'll be waiting for the game to be patched up and put on discount, making the game+dlc near the base price if not cheaper.

    Personally I don't have a problem with cut content, a company can sell a game the way it likes. I don't think Chaos playable was integral to the game anyway.

    The best 'figures' I can give you about steam refunds is Arkham Knight was such a bad release the publisher literally took the game off steam because so many refunds were being issued. And you can return steam preorders after release btw: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...6345-QIDX-7244

    Also, on all this, CA just released this: http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...rders-and-DLC/

  5. #45

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    60 dollars for potentially hundreds of hours of entertainment. One is likely to spend more than that on a single night out. Also, pretty sure that if they didn't have the day 1 DLC, they'd just up the price, resulting in fewer people getting the core game, which means less money over all and less future content. And while CA/SEGA might milk the DLC a bit, 1) It's really not that much (especially given the time X Entertainment value) 2) It's logical. 3) They give more free DLC than any other game franchise I can think of.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TwelveStep View Post
    60 dollars for potentially hundreds of hours of entertainment. .
    A bubblegum is not worth more money because you chew it for 5 hours instead of 5 minutes.

  7. #47

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    A bubblegum is not worth more money because you chew it for 5 hours instead of 5 minutes.
    Even if the bubble gum tastes amazing for 5 hours instead of 5 minutes? Bubble gum is mean to be an endurance chewing item thing, I actually think the longer it is enjoyable, the better the value if the price stays the same, just like video games. Replayability.... rechewability?

    How could you not say bubble gum that is chewable for 5 hours and tastes as good as the first 5 minutes isn't worth more?

  8. #48
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidtheDuke View Post
    Even if the bubble gum tastes amazing for 5 hours instead of 5 minutes? Bubble gum is mean to be an endurance chewing item thing, I actually think the longer it is enjoyable, the better the value if the price stays the same, just like video games.
    The best bubblegum I've ever tried cost 10cents top. 10 cents x 5 mins = 50 cents. 10 cents x 5hours = 30 euros. Would you find that paying 30 euros (aka 30000% the usual price) for that amazing bubblegum is justified?


    Replayability.... rechewability?
    Now that you mention it... Total War games are actually closer to an already chewed gum you put in your mouth for a second time than to the amazing gum with 5 hours of un-fading flavour xD


    How could you not say bubble gum that is chewable for 5 hours and tastes as good as the first 5 minutes isn't worth more?
    So if we both enjoy TW to the same degree, but you play it for 500 hours and I play it for 1000 hours, should my copy be twice as expensive?


    My point was not so much that longevity is not to be taken into account in the price, but that it's not what determines the price. You might use the same rock as paperweight for your entire life and a spoonful of caviar you enjoy for a few seconds will still be infinitely more expensive. I don't think that saying "60 bucks for TW are worth it because you play if for a truckload of hours" is a valid justification. It might be worth 60 euros for other reasons, but not for the ammount of time you play it, specially since someone who plays it for a dozen of hourse would be paying the same price as someone who spends years playing it.

  9. #49

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    My point was not so much that longevity is not to be taken into account in the price, but that it's not what determines the price. You might use the same rock as paperweight for your entire life and a spoonful of caviar you enjoy for a few seconds will still be infinitely more expensive. I don't think that saying "60 bucks for TW are worth it because you play if for a truckload of hours" is a valid justification. It might be worth 60 euros for other reasons, but not for the ammount of time you play it, specially since someone who plays it for a dozen of hourse would be paying the same price as someone who spends years playing it.
    I agree both are going to pay the same amount, however one obviously found it more enjoyable than the other, which implies one found it more valuable, personally.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidtheDuke View Post
    I agree both are going to pay the same amount, however one obviously found it more enjoyable than the other, which implies one found it more valuable, personally.
    Maybe he just had more free time =)

  11. #51

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Maybe he just had more free time =)
    That still means it was more valuable to their own life, however much of a non-life it really is :-D

  12. #52
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    DLC may be toxic in the sense that it turns the community against CA, but ultimately CA has the numbers on sales. They know how many people buy the game, and how many people buy the DLCs. The fact is, CA has very large production costs for each game, while prices of games have been stagnant for quite a while in the grander scheme of things. This means that they need to make up for the production cost somewhere, either by increasing the prices or by introducing paid-DLC. This is the point where CA having the numbers becomes important, because CA can model how much money they would make by increasing the prices and how much money they would make by using DLC to cover costs. The fact is TWC is a vocal minority that (in all probability still buys the game), while an increased price will put off many more casual people. Thus the few lost hardcore people is more than made up for by the added sales due to the lower price point & DLC revenue.

    I think most people have a perspective problem on the issue. DLC is not a way to milk people out of more money for the full game, rather it gives less hard core people a way to enjoy the game for cheaper. When I buy games I factor in the fact that there will be DLC from the point where I buy the game, since I want to experience the game to the fullest, thus I do not care if the game is 89.90 or 69.90 + 20.00. Other people might not care enough to spend 89.90 but care enough (even though they get less content) to pay 69.90.

  13. #53

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    DLC may be toxic in the sense that it turns the community against CA, but ultimately CA has the numbers on sales. They know how many people buy the game, and how many people buy the DLCs. The fact is TWC is a vocal minority that (in all probability still buys the game), while an increased price will put off many more casual people. Thus the few lost hardcore people is more than made up for by the added sales due to the lower price point & DLC revenue.
    Not quite true. They know how many people have bought their games in the past, they don't have the slightest clue of how many people will buy their latest games.

    But what indications we do have so far suggest CA hugely underestimated the number of people that would be put off by their business practices. Take a look at how well Rome II sold on the first week it became available for pre-order: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/tot.../1100-6408521/

    Now compare those numbers to Warhammer Total War, which ended up around page 6 of the steam top sellers list within a week of it becoming available for pre-order. Given the franchise's popularity, you would think W:TW would be selling at least as well as Rome II.
    Last edited by Theo; November 13, 2015 at 05:00 PM.

  14. #54

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Theo View Post
    Now compare those numbers to Warhammer Total War, which ended up around page 6 of the steam top sellers list within a week of it becoming available for pre-order. Given the franchise's popularity, you would think W:TW would be selling at least as well as Rome II.
    Not only that, Warhammer TW's announcement trailer has 4 times the views of the next biggest non-WTW video which had a headstart of about 2 years on it, and still has 4 times as many views. Even if you say this only means there is double interest in WTW compared to RTW2 from this ratio, the preorders should be around twice as much Rome 2.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    The fact is, CA has very large production costs for each game, while prices of games have been stagnant for quite a while in the grander scheme of things.
    Given that they have been essentially recycling the same game for years, I wonder where the hell are those large production costs going to. Facial animations?


    while an increased price will put off many more casual people
    "Casual people" who would find 10 extra bucks at release an obnoxious theft but who will end up spending hundreds of times that amount in purchasing low-quality individual dlcs and still believe that they have saved money. That's the target audience. The game is being designed to please such bright minds, and its quality reflects that.


    I think most people have a perspective problem on the issue. DLC is not a way to milk people out of more money for the full game, rather it gives less hard core people a way to enjoy the game for cheaper.
    Whut? Less hardcore people are the main market for dlcs. They just see something shiny and new and buy it.

    I think I have bought just 2 dlcs for TW in my entire life, one was discounted in Steam (Blood Pack for Shogun 2) and the other came in a Humble Bundle (Caesar in Gaul).



    DLCs are neither of those two things. DLCs are a means of adding extra content to a full game. They should be priced according to their quality, so the customers paid a fair price for what they get. If a DLC costs 20 bucks but it's worth every penny, so be it. Now, when what you get is an overpriced bunch of lazy-arse recycled assets, then I'm sorry but that's milking the customers.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidtheDuke View Post
    Not only that, Warhammer TW's announcement trailer has 4 times the views of the next biggest non-WTW video which had a headstart of about 2 years on it, and still has 4 times as many views. Even if you say this only means there is double interest in WTW compared to RTW2 from this ratio, the preorders should be around twice as much Rome 2.
    I'm not very sure about TW:W's popularity. At least in what concerns the official forums, there's noticeably less traffic than in the Rome II times. Even the announcement of the pre-order DLC and of the release date didn't improve the situation significantly. Based on what I remember from the 2013 summer, I'd say that the traffic of the forums may be even less than half of Rome's II. Not that forum traffic is the only thing that determines a game's popularity, but I think it's more reliable than the YT views of the announcement trailer.

  17. #57

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I'm not very sure about TW:W's popularity. At least in what concerns the official forums, there's noticeably less traffic than in the Rome II times. Even the announcement of the pre-order DLC and of the release date didn't improve the situation significantly. Based on what I remember from the 2013 summer, I'd say that the traffic of the forums may be even less than half of Rome's II. Not that forum traffic is the only thing that determines a game's popularity, but I think it's more reliable than the YT views of the announcement trailer.
    I'd say YT is at least as important for CA in gauging their potential market. I don't really think the forums represent more than 5% of the total TW playerbase. I mean, how many active users are on all the popular TW forums combined? Let's be generous and say 150k. That's still less than 10%of those who bought Rome 2 alone.

    I will agree that forums can represent wider sentiment among your loyal fanbase, however so can youtube views. I'd also say WTW YT are actually limited right now because the game still is 6 months out.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Well, I agree, but imo the video in which Warhammer was announced is probably the least reliable YT video, because everyone that is aware of Warhammer or Total War is going to check it out. The hyped fans are even going to watch it multiple times, so the views are not very indicative of anything. A better sample would be the following videos about more specific aspects of the game. Meanwhile, I made a quick research and five months before the release, there are much less threads in the WH forums than the R2 forums in early April (when neither the release date nor the pre-order DLC had been announced). In twcenter, we had approximately 2,400 threads for 234, although the situation in the official forums is slightly better: 2,200 threads to 883. Of course, that only concerns the number of threads, not the number of replies or views, of a small minority of the entire TW community, but I believe that it's still a bad sign for the popularity of TW: Warhammer.

  19. #59

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Well, I agree, but imo the video in which Warhammer was announced is probably the least reliable YT video, because everyone that is aware of Warhammer or Total War is going to check it out. The hyped fans are even going to watch it multiple times, so the views are not very indicative of anything. A better sample would be the following videos about more specific aspects of the game. Meanwhile, I made a quick research and five months before the release, there are much less threads in the WH forums than the R2 forums in early April (when neither the release date nor the pre-order DLC had been announced). In twcenter, we had approximately 2,400 threads for 234, although the situation in the official forums is slightly better: 2,200 threads to 883. Of course, that only concerns the number of threads, not the number of replies or views, of a small minority of the entire TW community, but I believe that it's still a bad sign for the popularity of TW: Warhammer.
    The gameplay videos/demos of WTW also have high viewcounts, especially considering they're only a few months old at best, when RTW2s have had 2+ years as well. Anything WTW outstrips any interest of historical TWs in general from my observation. I'd say it's more that WTW is bring in potential new players who don't even really know about TW forums, or are just starting to find and use them.

  20. #60
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    Default Change.org Petition regarding TW:Warhammer "Banned"

    https://www.change.org/p/creative-as...m_medium=email

    Basically a petition to make Warhammer "complete" on release reached over 8,000 signatures yesterday; as of today the petition maker has been banned as he noted his petition on the official forum.

    Nice move CA; suppression of dissenters is a sure way to gain respect and support.

    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by Zipzopdippidybopbop; November 24, 2015 at 07:28 AM.

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