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Thread: Creative Assembly Business Practice Discussion Thread (Warhammer I & II)

  1. #181
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    as we have no Warhammer humour thread how about this imaginary convo:

    SEGA: how to minimize the amount of Steam refunds for Warhammer?
    CA: Shipping the game with the best compression ever (just 9.5 GB sized), hence it will take 30 minutes on a classical HDD to expand and play the game for the very first time. While this process is running the time is already ticking, so a user has at most only 1 hour and 30 minutes left to shut down the game and request a refund. HAR HAR HAR
    p.s. it really happened that Warhammer took 30 minutes to expand the game at first launch on my secondary computer having no SSD.
    Last edited by alQamar; May 25, 2016 at 06:19 PM.
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  2. #182

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Ok, now here's a question: is it just me or does the bussiness model of SEGA and CA resemble more and more that of crooks?

    The game has missing animations and the Chaos Warriors act like the AI in Attila (homing missle, go to the most undefended settlement... no matter how long it takes), the v-sync was screwed at release, lots of copy and paste and so on. All in all it looks like they released an unfinished product (but a fun one cause it's still Total War...kind of) that ditched many features and asked 60-70 dollars/euros for it. On top, they cut out one of the core factions, the one that literally created the Warhammer world: Chaos.
    To me it seems that doing that is like a waiter telling you that you won't receive the meat in your spaghetti bolognese(which are not quite well cooked) if you do not give him a tip.

    Now honestly, to me this looks like a huge rip-off. Does anyone else feel like this?
    Last edited by Aurelius Silvanus Tacitus; May 26, 2016 at 04:27 AM.

  3. #183
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    I don't feel ripped off yet but I haven't paid the full price. There is still room for optimizations like with every new game around.
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  4. #184

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurelius Silvanus Tacitus View Post
    Ok, now here's a question: is it just me or does the bussiness model of SEGA and CA resemble more and more that of crooks?

    The game has missing animations and the Chaos Warriors act like the AI in Attila (homing missle, go to the most undefended settlement... no matter how long it takes), the v-sync was screwed at release, lots of copy and paste and so on. All in all it looks like they released an unfinished product (but a fun one cause it's still Total War...kind of) that ditched many features and asked 60-70 dollars/euros for it. On top, they cut out one of the core factions, the one that literally created the Warhammer world: Chaos.
    To me it seems that doing that is like a waiter telling you that you won't receive the meat in your spaghetti bolognese(which are not quite well cooked) if you do not give him a tip.

    Now honestly, to me this looks like a huge rip-off. Does anyone else feel like this?
    The only legitimate claim you made was that regarding CA's initial plans with the Warriors of Chaos. Everything else is what you would expect from a spoiled, self-entitled gamer who thinks he knows everything about the world.

    Copy-paste? Where exactly? I just love it when people just scream "copy-paste" without any specific evidence to back up such idiotic claims.
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; May 29, 2016 at 12:15 PM. Reason: off topic comments removed

  5. #185

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metallistic View Post
    The only legitimate claim you made was that regarding CA's initial plans with the Warriors of Chaos. Everything else is what you would expect from a spoiled, self-entitled gamer who thinks he knows everything about the world.

    Copy-paste? Where exactly? I just love it when people just scream "copy-paste" without any specific evidence to back up such idiotic claims.
    To anyone reading this: read my post attentively till then end and then ponder on it for 5 minutes before replying

    My fellow dweller of TWCenter,
    first of all I would like to say that the copy and paste I am referring to is the fact that each and every human faction, except for Brettonia is a copy of the Empire, including Tilea, Estalia, the Border Princes and most of all Kislev. The Norsans are also identical to the warriors of Chaos. Furthermore, I would like to point out that I had written that post not for whining but in order to ask a legitimate question and thus your ad-hominem attack was not only uncalled for but also has no place whatsoever in a thread discussin the bussiness practices of CA/SEGA.
    Anyway, I do believe that expecting a game to be released with all animations is not being spoiled, but a rather reasonable expectaction. Right now however, that is not the case for despite the assurance that the core factions have been mostly worked on and polished, we do find ourselves in the sutiation where the game does not have various reloading animations, including for handguns. Also, for a series that had rather enjoyable sieges in Rome, Medieval 2 and Shogun 2, the extreme streamlining is both uncalled for, as well as out of place in the Warhammer universe that revolves around epic battles and sieges. The speed of the battles is also something to be concerned for, because how else can we enjoy their epicness if we are too busy clicking? What happened to simply taking a 30 second break to zoom in and watch our soldiers or heroes fight? I could also go into detail with my favourite faction, the Empire: for example the Empire Spearmen had the advantage of the fact that not only the first rank was able to attack, functioning similarly to pikemen, which were used in the southern provinces. Furthermore, the archers of the Empire are missing as well as the Free company and the War Altar of Sigmar. Also, halbediers and spearmen are supposed to fight in close formation but in this game they are spaced out. I could go on for a long time but alas, it would take too much.
    For the campaign, things have been streamlined or as it is commonly known "dumbled down": food(famine is mention, which apparentely leads to cannibalism and ghouls) family trees, forms of government(including the interesting ones present in the Warhammer universe such as the Bretonnian succetion rules), taxation levels and many others including religion. Many of them were present in previous games, some like levels of taxation in ALL of the TW games and their removal was uncalled for, especially since they are a part of te Warhammer universe. Religion is one of the most important ones: Chaos bases itself on its worshipers, the Empire was split into three due to religious differences, Brettonia is built on faith in the Lady, Vlad von Carstein created a new cult worshiping the dead to strenghten his hold on Sylvania... Thus, taking an Empire province as Bretonnia or the other way around should result in penalties to public order due to religious differences. I agree, some improvements were made such as a slightly better optimisation, more coherent CAI, war-targets for individual allies, better battle music, better BAI and most of all the fact that you need growth to upgrade towns, which are the same for minor and majour settlements(a thing that I have requested a year ago for any next game that CA would make). The bottom line is, despite these advances, the game is still incomplete, it is an unpolished gem(well not all of it is a gem, it is like a golden coin decorated only on one side but that contain lead too save gold. The decoration are good, but we were promised a pure gold coin decorated on both sides).
    I do not know what are your standards for games, but my own state that a game should be finished and preferably well polished at release. Mods should NOT have to take the job of fixing the same but rather EXPANDING it. Right now, that is NOT the case.
    My expectations are NOT that high, I simply expect CA to include features that were in previous games, the one that would work for the Warhammer universe (religion, forms of government, food, propper taxation, regional specialities(Uln is the centre of cannon-making)...). I repeat, those are perfectly reasonable expectations.

    I conclude by expressing my indignation to the blatant silencing of critical voices: criticism of CA/SEGA's decisions or games is silenced by ad-hominem attacks rather than reason and arguments. I can see this here, where people like me are called "spoiled" or "crybabies" or sometimes even "nationalists"(those comming from Attila know about the latter). On the official site and facebook criticism is met with bans and on reddit with flames. I do believe that we should be critical of games and bussiness models, for only this way we will help them improve. A blind defence and worship of any TW game does nothing but harm it.

    Thus, I urge both you and everyone else to calm down and engage in a civil and deep conversation. Should an other ad-hominem attack, uncalled for and unsupported by any arguments or fact be directed my way I shall contact the mods.
    Thank you for reading,
    Aurelius Silvanus Tacitus

    PS: If you didn't read it all, please go back and do so
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; May 29, 2016 at 12:16 PM.

  6. #186

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    I think all of us on this thread should just go to youtube and re watch that "siege of Carthage" video they released, they claimed it was all "way way pre alpha" and that the finished game would be way better. In this video we saw things that were blatantly impossible to achieve in Rome 2 like a working AI, good graphics and effects, most importantly that of the city of Carthage itself, a long shot from the pathetic "cities" in the game. I challenge anyone to recreate the city of Carthage as it appeared in that video and post it on this forum.

    Then there was another ridiculous claim from CA that only "2%" of people had problems running the game another blatant lie.
    The long and short of this is CA blatantly produced fraudulent advertising for the game Rome 2 Total War, that did not reflect the quality of the product that was release.

    I would also go as far as to claim this is a violation of fair trading laws, its like selling a used car to someone and forgetting to tell them that the engine dosnt work. I honestly believe in Australia you could take them to court for this.

    Also the general laziness and sub par performance of a so called "professional" gaming developer please, what a joke the modders on this forum have created much better things from their broken half finished games then they ever could, its honestly an embarresment.

    EDIT - i just rewatched it right now and i honestly believe it is a DIFFERENT game, watch it yourself an see it.
    Last edited by hospitaller13; May 27, 2016 at 10:44 PM.

  7. #187
    Lionheart11's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hospitaller13 View Post
    I take that as a poor business strategy, to just pretend that the problems do not exist and ignore a big customer fanbase at twc. At least alot of companies provide some kind of customer service and feedback.
    Yeah just swept under the rug and hidden from sight, 21 century style. It would be ok if someone acknowledged peoples concerns but no, utter silence.
    "illegitimi non carborundum"

    TW RIP

  8. #188

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hospitaller13 View Post
    I think all of us on this thread should just go to youtube and re watch that "siege of Carthage" video they released, they claimed it was all "way way pre alpha" and that the finished game would be way better. In this video we saw things that were blatantly impossible to achieve in Rome 2 like a working AI, good graphics and effects, most importantly that of the city of Carthage itself, a long shot from the pathetic "cities" in the game. I challenge anyone to recreate the city of Carthage as it appeared in that video and post it on this forum.

    Then there was another ridiculous claim from CA that only "2%" of people had problems running the game another blatant lie.
    The long and short of this is CA blatantly produced fraudulent advertising for the game Rome 2 Total War, that did not reflect the quality of the product that was release.

    I would also go as far as to claim this is a violation of fair trading laws, its like selling a used car to someone and forgetting to tell them that the engine dosnt work. I honestly believe in Australia you could take them to court for this.

    Also the general laziness and sub par performance of a so called "professional" gaming developer please, what a joke the modders on this forum have created much better things from their broken half finished games then they ever could, its honestly an embarresment.

    EDIT - i just rewatched it right now and i honestly believe it is a DIFFERENT game, watch it yourself an see it.
    Exactly, we all know this except some who just want to not believe. I hate to use the term cognitive dissonance, but it's applicable here.
    Shogun 2, no thanks I will stick with Kingdoms SS.

  9. #189
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    The 2% statement was misused and misunderstood however. They referred to 2% of people that had technical issues to even launch the game. Not saying only 2% facing ANY technical difficulties at all.

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  10. #190

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    The 2% statement was misused and misunderstood however. They referred to 2% of people that had technical issues to even launch the game. Not saying only 2% facing ANY technical difficulties at all.
    maybe or maybe not,who cares, fact is they have tried to relativize grievances, the errors,bugs,lies and much more....

  11. #191

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurelius Silvanus Tacitus View Post
    To anyone reading this: read my post attentively till then end and then ponder on it for 5 minutes before replying

    My fellow dweller of TWCenter,
    first of all I would like to say that the copy and paste I am referring to is the fact that each and every human faction, except for Brettonia is a copy of the Empire, including Tilea, Estalia, the Border Princes and most of all Kislev. The Norsans are also identical to the warriors of Chaos. Furthermore, I would like to point out that I had written that post not for whining but in order to ask a legitimate question and thus your ad-hominem attack was not only uncalled for but also has no place whatsoever in a thread discussin the bussiness practices of CA/SEGA.
    Anyway, I do believe that expecting a game to be released with all animations is not being spoiled, but a rather reasonable expectaction. Right now however, that is not the case for despite the assurance that the core factions have been mostly worked on and polished, we do find ourselves in the sutiation where the game does not have various reloading animations, including for handguns. Also, for a series that had rather enjoyable sieges in Rome, Medieval 2 and Shogun 2, the extreme streamlining is both uncalled for, as well as out of place in the Warhammer universe that revolves around epic battles and sieges. The speed of the battles is also something to be concerned for, because how else can we enjoy their epicness if we are too busy clicking? What happened to simply taking a 30 second break to zoom in and watch our soldiers or heroes fight? I could also go into detail with my favourite faction, the Empire: for example the Empire Spearmen had the advantage of the fact that not only the first rank was able to attack, functioning similarly to pikemen, which were used in the southern provinces. Furthermore, the archers of the Empire are missing as well as the Free company and the War Altar of Sigmar. Also, halbediers and spearmen are supposed to fight in close formation but in this game they are spaced out. I could go on for a long time but alas, it would take too much.
    For the campaign, things have been streamlined or as it is commonly known "dumbled down": food(famine is mention, which apparentely leads to cannibalism and ghouls) family trees, forms of government(including the interesting ones present in the Warhammer universe such as the Bretonnian succetion rules), taxation levels and many others including religion. Many of them were present in previous games, some like levels of taxation in ALL of the TW games and their removal was uncalled for, especially since they are a part of te Warhammer universe. Religion is one of the most important ones: Chaos bases itself on its worshipers, the Empire was split into three due to religious differences, Brettonia is built on faith in the Lady, Vlad von Carstein created a new cult worshiping the dead to strenghten his hold on Sylvania... Thus, taking an Empire province as Bretonnia or the other way around should result in penalties to public order due to religious differences. I agree, some improvements were made such as a slightly better optimisation, more coherent CAI, war-targets for individual allies, better battle music, better BAI and most of all the fact that you need growth to upgrade towns, which are the same for minor and majour settlements(a thing that I have requested a year ago for any next game that CA would make). The bottom line is, despite these advances, the game is still incomplete, it is an unpolished gem(well not all of it is a gem, it is like a golden coin decorated only on one side but that contain lead too save gold. The decoration are good, but we were promised a pure gold coin decorated on both sides).
    I do not know what are your standards for games, but my own state that a game should be finished and preferably well polished at release. Mods should NOT have to take the job of fixing the same but rather EXPANDING it. Right now, that is NOT the case.
    My expectations are NOT that high, I simply expect CA to include features that were in previous games, the one that would work for the Warhammer universe (religion, forms of government, food, propper taxation, regional specialities(Uln is the centre of cannon-making)...). I repeat, those are perfectly reasonable expectations.

    I conclude by expressing my indignation to the blatant silencing of critical voices: criticism of CA/SEGA's decisions or games is silenced by ad-hominem attacks rather than reason and arguments. I can see this here, where people like me are called "spoiled" or "crybabies" or sometimes even "nationalists"(those comming from Attila know about the latter). On the official site and facebook criticism is met with bans and on reddit with flames. I do believe that we should be critical of games and bussiness models, for only this way we will help them improve. A blind defence and worship of any TW game does nothing but harm it.

    Thus, I urge both you and everyone else to calm down and engage in a civil and deep conversation. Should an other ad-hominem attack, uncalled for and unsupported by any arguments or fact be directed my way I shall contact the mods.
    Thank you for reading,
    Aurelius Silvanus Tacitus

    PS: If you didn't read it all, please go back and do so

    I feel you and Im affraid that I know the answare to your problems. Saddly it is hidden in plain sight.

    The problem is without any doubt...the Games Workshop itself. Their MAIN goal is to produce and sell tabletop figurines, never forget about that.

    Why does it matter youll ask? Well imagine that some company working with GW makes a game, a very very good game based on their universe. Now tell me who will continue to buy VERY expensive, physical figures in scenario when one has ALL OF THEM in a one, very good game? I dont say that suddenly the whole fanbase of WH tabletops will collapse but this would take some attention from their main product and point it on the pc game which is, well not that good for theirs buisness department.

    All of those missing, "little" things that we are used to arent here on purpose.

    Bear in mind that we already know that this game will copy SC2 release plan and will go out as a trinity (as far as Im concerned), add SOME DLCs that will be emerge later on (mostly due to fanbase actions I assume) and suddenly you do have additional product that is neither very bad nor very good but...people pay a lot of their money to get it. We are all so confused about their future additions to TW:W that no one even try to compare THIS NEW SHINY game to its older, much more expensive tabletop predecessor. Which is good. For their company. Because it doesnt affect the most important sales.

    After a while when the dust falls we will have our blood'n'gore dlcs, missing factions and stuff like missing animations. We will think that we won something, that we fought and got it but in the end...we are the ones that pay for it.

    Ive lost my thought somewhere while posting but the point is:
    - you are correct,
    - it doesnt matter
    - and its all about the money (why sell the perfect game even for 100$ when you can sell 3 games + dlcs for 420$~ total?).
    Last edited by Flinn; June 08, 2016 at 10:35 AM. Reason: do not post all in bold, thanks

  12. #192
    Flinn's Avatar The Alpha Santa!
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by orzch View Post

    Why does it matter youll ask? Well imagine that some company working with GW makes a game, a very very good game based on their universe. Now tell me who will continue to buy VERY expensive, physical figures in scenario when one has ALL OF THEM in a one, very good game? I dont say that suddenly the whole fanbase of WH tabletops will collapse but this would take some attention from their main product and point it on the pc game which is, well not that good for theirs buisness department.
    As someone who's in the business of sales since more than 10 years, I can say that this is part of the game; I would say that CA did not take the rights to make a WH game for free, hence GW knew what they were doing, IMO.
    Last edited by Flinn; June 08, 2016 at 12:26 PM. Reason: darn typos :(
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  13. #193

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    "... that CA did not take the rights to make a WH game for free, hence GW knew what they where doing, IMO.
    If I do understand you correctly, we do agree.

    That is what make me worried the most - that they know exactly what to do in order to milk the customers. Dont get me wrong. I have nothing against a company making a profit but...a few things can be done in more then 1 way.

  14. #194
    ACMilan88's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Dunno if i have gotten this right but Chaos faction is actually included in the main game, the DLC just makes them playable? That would be a friggin freud. I purchased the chaos DLC thinking i got a completely new faction (allthough chaos should have been included in the main game as a important faction) but if i just payed for 3 lines of code changes that makes me real pissed. Assuming the latter, i to, will be done with SEGA/CA and not purchase annything from them in the future. In this case the game is not for the fans annymore, they don't really care, squizing out every penny with faul strategies seem to be their new way...

    And as always CA never does their homework. In everygame they have cloned the units of factions. What is worse is that the hardcore fans of Warhammer tabletop will be pretty dissapointed that, for example, all imperial factions have exactly the same unit rooster. Going back, dropping big titles like ETW, NTW and with the developing tools/platforms they've been working on sense STW - they could have hired a historian or someone compentent to do reasearch how units actually looked during these periods and enabled the developers to re-create the atmosphere and cosmetics of these factions during those time periods. The conclussion of this is that it is clear the hardcore fans don't want clone armies and copy pasted roosters. Still SEGA/SA copy and pastes away and just give theme different colours and faction names, they still haven't gotten it after all these years.

    Sooner or later another there will be another company developing games like TW-series and by that time i believe the bulk of the long-time faithful TW-fans will move along..
    Last edited by ACMilan88; June 08, 2016 at 12:05 PM.

  15. #195
    Flinn's Avatar The Alpha Santa!
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by orzch View Post
    If I do understand you correctly, we do agree.

    That is what make me worried the most - that they know exactly what to do in order to milk the customers. Dont get me wrong. I have nothing against a company making a profit but...a few things can be done in more then 1 way.
    Surely there's always more than one way Infact I was not referreing specifically to the business policy, but to the fact that I really doubt that GW was not perfectly aware of what was going to happen. Personally I have too much experience in the business to be surprised or disappointed by anything anymore (in general I mean ) and people has the right to complain ofc (in a civil manner though), while I also believe that everybody should never forget that the most important right for any customer is the freedom to decide if to purchase something or not, as a first instance.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22& Socrates1984; of the Imperial House of Hader

  16. #196

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ACMilan88 View Post
    In this case the game is not for the fans annymore, they don't really care, squizing out every penny with faul strategies seem to be their new way...
    Well doesnt it mean that this game is purely for the fans ;]? Only they will be going to squiz out every penny for the games content.

    Quote Originally Posted by ACMilan88 View Post
    What is worse is that the hardcore fans of Warhammer tabletop will be pretty dissapointed that, for example, all imperial factions have exactly the same unit rooster.
    Hardcore fans already spend a lot of their money on the tabletop game so they are all but the problem for GW.

    Quote Originally Posted by ACMilan88 View Post
    The conclussion of this is that it is clear the hardcore fans don't want clone armies and copy pasted roosters. Still SEGA/SA copy and pastes away and just give theme different colours and faction names, they still haven't gotten it after all these years.
    The hardcore fans are sticking with tabletop which is much more expensive and hm rewarding for them Id say. Do not forget that GW cares THE MOST about their figurines, its the water for their millwheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by ACMilan88 View Post
    Sooner or later another there will be another company developing games like TW-series and by that time i believe the bulk of the long-time faithful TW-fans will move along..
    We had about 10 years for that and how many other game developers had decided to go this path? None. We are living in an era of mass produced FPSs and we cant really change that. The long story short - yes you are right, the monopoly in this case is our main problem.

  17. #197

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    I'm done with CA and any games from this studio. I may change my mind when CA actually decides to change. When it will start listening to players feedback, communicating with fans. When it will start a game with a brand new engine focused on optimization. When it will stop releasing blood and gore DLC. When it will create a game which has revolutionary features and not just magic and flying units. It will probably not happen in the near future. I'm bored of CA games, they became repetitive and uninspiring.

  18. #198

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    People forget about one thing in regards to GW and TW:W and sales of models.
    The 8th edition is no more.
    All is left in fantasy now is AOS.

    To me....what matter to me is the lack of features that was once there in previous TW games.

  19. #199

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    One thing I suspect is that the simplification and sometimes removal of various systems is not necessarily because of the licence but because they (probably sega and/or CA) decided that since it's not a historical title it was a good idea to make it more accessible. A gateway to Total War games (like for GW it's a gateway to the Warhammer universe).

    The simplification of sieges especially; I find it very hard to believe that the end result came about because they truly thought making it easier for the AI was worth sacrificing so much. But economy is just as striking, as are the missing stances and formations for units. It's easy to come up with more examples.

    Of course, even if they did believe that, then that means they don't know what their fanbase wants (and I'm not a Total War veteran, really) or possibly ignored them in favour of potentially attracting new players.

    In the end, whatever the reason, it's just so puzzling to me that while graphics are improving over the course of Total War games, mechanics aren't necessarily. I understand some measure of experimentation to see what works but there's so much missing, from little touches and options to major mechanics that I wonder how they got at the product we now see. And what may be more frustrating for more long-time fans (I'm not as connected to the franchise) is that the game shows promise yet doesn't deliver on what other Total War titles have to some extent.

  20. #200

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    I will share with you some numbers and review of the game that is in the market for TW.


    TW Rome II reached 250,000 players in the first weeks and went to 100,000 players during the first months. Warhammer after 1, 2 weeks was only from 150,000 to 40,000 players.


    CA / SEGA advertisements, where they spent hundreds of euros in advertising on Youtube and magazines before lunch as never before.


    And today, not even one month has passed, the game is 12 for most played games on Steam with only 37,000 players.


    The opinions on steam, 9000 vs 3000 positive comments negative, 75%, is a success? TW Rome II with all the problems it had after all these years has 77% positive opinions !!


    It is the most expensive TW ever!


    Yeah, not like this kind of games in TW, one TW ultra imaginary fantasy play of children, is not for TW, SEGA has RELIC for this type of games.


    TW is for people who like military human history, + 18, not -18.


    All this time and money wasted, because a minority of employees in SEGA / CA wanted to impose their childhood wishes in TW.


    You do not want to know the base of the TW community, those who buy all TW these last 15 ... this is the first time that I do not bought a TW , says it all,


    Start to respect the base ,the elderly players,the clans (where is the ladders we want as it was on TWSHOGUN II ,years begging for it and nothing !!! ) ,TWC , we want TW as the best Military Human History game, period .
    Last edited by foot soldier; June 15, 2016 at 06:04 AM.
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