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Thread: Creative Assembly Business Practice Discussion Thread (Warhammer I & II)

  1. #1
    Radzeer's Avatar Rogue Bodemloze
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    Default Creative Assembly Business Practice Discussion Thread (Warhammer I & II)

    In order to facilitate reasonable, intelligent discourse and keep the forums clean, Moderation Staff have decided to create a single thread where all user concerns about Creative Assembly's business practices vis–à–vis Total War: Warhammer can be discussed. Please keep discussion civil; the Terms of Service, as always, remain in full force. Also, remember that CA and SEGA as companies count as members of the board (just as their registered employees do), so ToS-breaking remarks about CA and SEGA will be handled the same way as if those would be directed at anybody here.

    Moderation Staff reserves the right to merge any threads or posts relating to the topic into this thread and to cull any posts deemed unnecessary. Questions and concerns about Moderation practices should be posted in the Moderation Commentary Thread.

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    Zipzopdippidybopbop's Avatar Barred from the Local
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Ahh, this thread again.

    Well it's basically the same as last time; CA have become one of the most dubious gaming companies in the land with their pre-release pay-walls/cut content DLC. What's more shocking is the clear abhorrence to these practices among the gaming community, seen with the downvotes on Youtube, Steam and Facebook; yet they persist.

    I wonder what they're thinking.

  3. #3

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    I might just log into facebook give em the old thumbs down.

  4. #4
    gangstamaori's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Well, what was really expected in regards to paywalling factions? Since FOTS it has been a problem, and it was a massive problem in R2TW and Attila. The game is going to be buggy as anyway, so might as well wait a few years until there is a complete collection on sale so you can get the full experience.

    "The disgraced and the disinherited. This is my army. This is our best hope."

  5. #5

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    I was never going to by TW:WH, it's not a game I am interested (same as shogun). But, what I am disappointed in is the way CA have treated us as the consumers. Some wrote on another thread regarding the PR staff, How can you consistently promote and back this game with out saying to your boss.

    "sales are okay, but it would be so much better if you weren't trying to fleece your consumers" It must be the worst job in the gaming industry. "Hey marketing guys, I want you to release a video, of a pre-order DLC for the chaos faction - yes I know they are extremely important - and I want the release date in 6 months time, oh and I want to charge them 49.99 - yes i know thats more expensive than a Xbox One game"

    He's the issue, CA knows they have a niche market and no one can touch them.

  6. #6
    BalrogOfMorgoth's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Reminder that the Chaos units have been programmed alongside the core game units

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Pic related is from one of their videos. The chaos units are here, being developped since weeks

    Why don't they include them as a Day One FLC like they did for Pontus?

  7. #7
    The Roman Republic's Avatar Alea iacta est
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles Invictus View Post
    Ahh, this thread again.

    Well it's basically the same as last time; CA have become one of the most dubious gaming companies in the land with their pre-release pay-walls/cut content DLC. What's more shocking is the clear abhorrence to these practices among the gaming community, seen with the downvotes on Youtube, Steam and Facebook; yet they persist.

    I wonder what they're thinking.
    You mean SEGA.

  8. #8
    Aquila_Mars's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Honestly the latest news pushed me from being a "100% gona buy" to "not buying" the game.

    I don't have a problem with DLC, but only if it is done after the core game is done. In the good old days we called these things expansions. Barbarian Invasion, Kingdoms.

    I think instead of developing things in what they call their "free" time. They should polish the core, and work on whatever expansions/dlcs they want to do after. After the game's release. The game is 6 months away.

    The money I'll be giving them will be for whatever they did until release, not bits and pieces of it. After that fiasco that was Rome 2, I'm not pre-ordering one of their titles, ever. And this is exactly why they are holding a faction at ransom. They know people grew cautious and are, as many others stated, holding a carrot hanging from a stick. Hoping we'll jump on it. That is a further insult to us customers/fans.
    "So what if we have "protection"? Lets say the game sucked and we refunded. They fix it 14 patches later and I already refunded? So now I pay more for Chaos. The steam refund is not a solution here."

    This Warhammer game was the reason I became active in these forums for goodness sake.

    People are saying steam refunds and such now, how I wish we had that back when rome 2 was released. I'm not pre-ordering the game, not because of the price etc or that I think the game will be bad or anything like that.

    Simply because I do not approve of the business practice. We have more info on this DLC faction than we have on any other faction in the game. It is just odd.
    Last edited by Aquila_Mars; October 25, 2015 at 07:20 AM.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    How Skyrim / Mass Effect is how DLC should be.

    You get loads of free stuff, the big stuff you pay for. But these things are worth the money

  10. #10

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    I'm just gonna quote Aanker's original post that made pretty much everything clear:

    By the powers normally bestowed upon the OP, please observe that any discussion herein that is not constructive in nature is strictly off-topic.

    Introduction

    CA has a community relationship problem. I sadly do not have any specific statistics to show this, but judging by the mass 66% downvote rating of their recent Youtube video featuring the preorder DLC news, it doesn't seem like an altogether distant conclusion. Other videos with... Similar content... have been received in the same fashion. The problem also surfaces in the negative opinions expressed here and on other forums where CA products are discussed.

    Does CA ultimately deserve this reputation? Although the subject of this particular topic, CA and SEGA are strictly speaking businesses. Their purpose is not to be friends with everyone and anyone; a business is supposed to run a profit... But sales can be increased with a healthy community relationship! Here, we are going to try to make suggestions to CA on how to improve their community status, whether the current slump is deserved or not.

    A Good Example

    I think CD Projekt Red sets a pretty solid example for the rest of the gaming industry with regards to DLC policies, preorders and community relationships. At least, that is the perception of the potential buyer. And the potential buyer is all that matters. Heck, in some respect I think CDPR could increase the pricing of their games given the popularity and legitimacy the enjoy at the moment, because a Witcher game is regarded as a worthwhile investment. And while CDPR is by no means flawless as a developer (given the obvious misrepresentation of game graphics between the various E3 demonstrations), they seem to have gotten a few things right:

    * Preorders: neither non-essential nor banal. A preordering customer is supposed to be rewarded, because purchasing the game early is done with some degree of confidence that the product will deliver. But the non-preordering customer should have the chance to appreciate the game after release without feeling cheated for waiting. That's why a preorder reward should follow the pattern of non-essential content; something that does not feel integral to the experience of the game.
    * DLC done right: additional content is additional. It is non-essential to the main experience of the game, and rather feels like branches growing out in whichever direction the player would like to explore through purchases.
    * Maintenance of the trunk, non-DLC game: free missions, textures and items included in maintenance patches rolled out for the base game. This entices the customer to perhaps reward the company with auxilliary purchases of DLC.
    * Feedback response: this is done through honest, down-to-earth responses to valid feedback. These responses can be felt through actual patches and content, a comment is simply not enough. Whether right or wrong, customers demand more.

    Non-Essential Content

    A point of contention when discussing DLC and preorders is the degree to which a company is entitled to create "premium content" during development of the main game or its patches. Customers nowadays understand that companies need to make a profit. Most people accept good DLC. But why does a preorder bonus such as the Chaos Warriors pack cause such an uproar? The reason is that, without the DLC installed, players feel like an essential component of the game is missing. The game is weak because of the missing content. "Ah!", says the company, "it is not missing. Look here!", is the common response. This type of maneuver only highlights the ruse that the customer has just been subjected to. If the DLC content does not appear to be missing from the game in the first place, offering (for example) additional factions will be appreciated as adding to an already strong base game. Objectively through some laws of philosophy, this might not be true, but it is what the potential buyer perceives. And the potential buyer is all that matters.

    CA is making critical mistakes in especially this respect.

    The Way Forward

    CA should immediately redact the Chaos Warriors pack preorder offer in some way, shape or form, or compensate by making the faction unlockable for free in the base game (for instance, by completing the campaigns of all other factions). This might be undesirable in some respects, and send the message that CA does not know what it is currently doing, but in the long run a solid community relationship can only be built up step by step through precise and specific measures such as these. Explaining the expansion plan further would be another excellent maneuver - expansions certainly have less negative connotations than DLC. A framework must also be established where CA maybe not explicitly, but at least implicitly, provides guarantees that essential components of the game will not be missing for non-DLC buyers. Otherwise, customers will be wondering what other components than a faction might be missing from their purchase.

  11. #11
    BalrogOfMorgoth's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Judging by the like/dislike ratio, I realy hope CA listen and do something just like the Deus Ex team did for their "augment your pre-order" scam

    By wanting to make more money with holding back a fan-favorite faction, they are losing pre-orders, consumers, popularity and credibility

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    Zipzopdippidybopbop's Avatar Barred from the Local
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dictator Of The Roman Republic View Post
    You mean SEGA.
    I wouldn't be so quick as to pin all the blame on SEGA. I expect SEGA allows CA to have a degree of autonomy in their decision making and ideas (after all, they made the game, so they would know best).

  13. #13
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    There's no difference between SEGA and CA after the latter was bought by the former. It's just the producing and developing departments of the same company named differently. What you mean is that the sector actually responsible for the financial success of the product is unsurprisingly also responsible for decisions that intend to maximize its profit, like pricing, cut-content and etc., which usually come against the interests of the consumer. It's not a case of evil SEGA or corrupted CA, just normal business.

  14. #14
    BalrogOfMorgoth's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Hell, even Ubisoft or EA never announced a DLC 6 months before the release of the core game!

    The worst is that we now more about the DLC than the Empire roster! This is some very strange and stupid politic.

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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BalrogOfMorgoth View Post
    Hell, even Ubisoft or EA never announced a DLC 6 months before the release of the core game!

    The worst is that we now more about the DLC than the Empire roster! This is some very strange and stupid politic.
    And you'd have to add that Empire troops look so poor, cheap and neglected compared to the attention apparently given to a cut out faction that, according to CA, wasn't even supposed to make the cut through the main game at launch (Chaos). I mean I personally could create 20 complex shield textures in one single damn afternoon! And they are going for simple 2 colors geometrical emblems... Empire state troops need a total rework (more exagerated weapons, more "baroque" look and simply more love... This is just lazzy decisions here. Not even talking about the morion thing (how comes GW hasn't spanked the designers on this??).

    My point is, I cannot understand that so much time and attention over detail and respect towards actual figurines is being spent on a so called "DLC" faction, and meanwhile being forced to whitness this excuse of Imperial troops. Empire is supposed to be one of the main faction. I'm a big fan of Empire and at this point the units looks and lack of respect towards the TT doesn't make me want to play it. At all...

  16. #16
    Chris P. Bacon's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    I agree Manu the Empire state troops we have seen so far are quite pitiful.

  17. #17

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Manu La Canette View Post
    And you'd have to add that Empire troops look so poor, cheap and neglected compared to the attention apparently given to a cut out faction that, according to CA, wasn't even supposed to make the cut through the main game at launch (Chaos). I mean I personally could create 20 complex shield textures in one single damn afternoon! And they are going for simple 2 colors geometrical emblems... Empire state troops need a total rework (more exagerated weapons, more "baroque" look and simply more love... This is just lazzy decisions here. Not even talking about the morion thing (how comes GW hasn't spanked the designers on this??).

    My point is, I cannot understand that so much time and attention over detail and respect towards actual figurines is being spent on a so called "DLC" faction, and meanwhile being forced to whitness this excuse of Imperial troops. Empire is supposed to be one of the main faction. I'm a big fan of Empire and at this point the units looks and lack of respect towards the TT doesn't make me want to play it. At all...
    Can't disagree with that at all. Right now Call of Warhammer - a free mod - has troops that look better than WTW's, and I'm one of those people that are preordering. It's possible the regular chaos troops look bad too, but for whatever reason the empire in general didn't look "quite right", including the greatswords. Hell, compounded with the fact we probably won't be able to improve their armor like in MTW2, and we're just stuck with whatever look they have and that's that, is kinda sad frankly.

  18. #18
    Ygraine's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Calling a content patch "FREELC" to begin with is silly. No other devs/publishers do that - it makes me wonder if they call it that just to make the community think they're getting something "free" (which would have been free anyway, as a content patch - comparing to how other companies do it). Emphasis on how they describe this "free content" - to induce a false sense of gratefulness from the fans.

    "Stop complaining about DLCs guys, they gave us two FREELCs!" This is something I've seen a few times by fangirls/fanboys on the forums. While it's expected that most devs will patch their games/add a modicum of content patches post-release - CA has made a big deal out of their content patches.
    (2nd position - Gameplay Mods-category - 2016 Modding Awards.)

  19. #19

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    Calling a content patch "FREELC" to begin with is silly. No other devs/publishers do that - it makes me wonder if they call it that just to make the community think they're getting something "free" (which would have been free anyway, as a content patch - comparing to how other companies do it). Emphasis on how they describe this "free content" - to induce a false sense of gratefulness from the fans.

    "Stop complaining about DLCs guys, they gave us two FREELCs!" This is something I've seen a few times by fangirls/fanboys on the forums. While it's expected that most devs will patch their games/add a modicum of content patches post-release - CA has made a big deal out of their content patches.
    When I got the Emperor Edition of Rome 2 for "free" it made me smile. I always wonder how many people these type of tactics work on.

  20. #20

    Default Re: CA business practice discussion thread

    My addition is how they moderate their forums. It has really made me doubt CA even more.

    I have never been given warnings, banned, had a thread locked/moved or have had any post deleted on any forum until I posted this:

    I was expecting Chaos to play a similar role as the Mongols in Medieval 2 then be added as a playable faction in the next release.

    Cutting such a major faction and making it available only to people who pre-order or buy the DLC after release seems wrong to me.

    I am not 100% sure how it works but if they are in the game but unplayable is it not just some lines of code that need to be changed?
    It got moved to rant and raves. Which as a customer I found rather insulting.

    I also noticed no matter how polite, well written, thoughtful a post was in there announcement thread about the release and Chaos thread that did not say something completely positive it did not remain there long.

    As a customer the impression I get is they really do not care what I have to say.

    I also made a thread basically saying what I said in the sentence above that I totally expected mods to jump on. Which they did. One mod moved it, another came along deleted the post that agreed with me, left the ones not agreeing or hostile to me and then locked it.

    The mod sent me a warning and suggested I was slandering them.

    The whole experience has soured my feelings regarding CA.
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; October 25, 2015 at 10:23 PM. Reason: changed the quote in white font to make it more readable

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