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Thread: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

  1. #1

    Default Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    Hi everyone,

    I am thinking about starting a new campaign for either Baktria and Saka Rauka, as both of the factions combine Hellenic style hoplites with heavily armed and armored eastern cavalry.
    At least from messing around in custom battles, do I get the impression that the Saka have the stronger roster-their hybrid heavy horse archers being ridiculously powerful. Still, could anyone illuminate me as to the differences between the two rosters?
    Also, is it the case that the nomadic factions have a vastly reduced potential research rate as compared to the roman and hellenic factions?
    Thanks so much!


    -Joaltmon

  2. #2
    Irishmafia2020's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    I believe that Saka has a much worse economy, but they are easier to fight with against their neighbors during the early campaign. Their horse archers dominate the early battlefield, and are effective against other tribal style factions - but you won't be able to afford very many of them! Bactria has an awesome roster, but early on you'll be taking levies against HA's and you will lose them all, but your economy is strong enough to quickly replace your losses. I haven't really played nomads that much, so my opinion is based the reports that other players have made about Saka Rauka. I have started a couple of Bactria campaigns and found them to be an uphill battle of attrition against the nomadic factions that can easily annihilate your early troops, but who can't take walls since they don't have any decent infantry. I always feel like I am on the edge of civilization as Bactria - out their surrounded by East Indians (who make great allies btw) and vicious nomad tribes - and totally cut off from other Greeks.

    Also, it has been reported in the last preview that a new version of DEI (1.1) will be released next week, and it seems to make a number of big changes that are not going to be save game compatible, so my advice would be to try out a mini campaign, five years or so, to get the flavor of each faction so that you can really play a deep campaign next week. I know that waiting is driving me crazy right now, as I had planned on starting another campaign this weekend - but I also realize I would throw it out immediately the moment that DEI 1.1 is released! Good luck, either way you should have a fun and unique experience playing as nomads or Greeks surrounded by a very alien culture!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    I'll say that playing as the Saka Rauka is one of the more challenging starts I've had in DEI. I say this because at the start you'll only be able to recruit levy horse archers, the same as everyone else around you. And since the CAI actually recruit functioning armies, you'll be facing 20-40 stacks of horse/foot archers with your own. Now I've found that trumping AI foot archers is easy with western factions, but when you have horse archers v horse archers it's a micromanagement nightmare, you have to be VERY much on point to get the upper hand. And anything with a scrap of armor or a shield (like the mid-tier hybrid cav you get later on) is perfect for chasing horse archers while you take care of the rest of the enemy army. It's MUCH harder than anything else I've played in any other Total War campaign--which is why I love nomads. But battle-wise, you're in for a hard time. And on the campaign map you don't have a lot of friends.

    I've actually found nomads much easier to manage as the Baktrians because you start off with units you can afford to use as meat shields. If you keep the AI distracted with them then your native foot archers can outshoot their horsemen and eventually win. Baktria also doesn't have a lot of friends on the campaign map, but you have FOUR provinces and a silk node--your economy is awesome and you can afford enough stacks to take on Parthia, the Dahae, the Saka/Chorasmii, the Seleucid rebels, and the Seleucids themselves (if you mismanaged your diplomacy as badly as I did). Plus, AOR units make up for Baktria's lack of amazing core horse skirmishers.

    So for the rosters, I'd give the edge to the Baktrians. The Saka get some Indo-Hellenic units, yes, but they're kind of outdated by the time you nab them and it isn't that many. The local AOR units for Baktria, though, are amazing, and you can pick up horse archers pretty much anywhere to supplement your heavy hellenic battle-line. Strong shock cavalry, elephants, and just plain style make up for their deficiencies imo. And this is coming from someone who loves the Saka Rauka to death. Either way I think you'll have fun, the Central Asian theater is so fun to play and I love the history.


  4. #4
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    I wouldnt say that you can compare the two factions. Their rosters are totally different and their main focus is also different. Saka Rauka' main force lies in horse archers and NOT infantry whereas Baktria can rely on heavy inf to do the main work and have some horse archers to harass or control the flanks. Saka Rauka is the most challenging faction of the two but Imo the most rewarding and fun to play.
    Give the edge to Baktria?
    That depends on how well you are at micro managing your troops. Nomadic tribes in the right hands can grind through every single type of army trown at you. Even with light horse archers you can tear everyone else apart with little to no casualties.
    My choice would lie with Saka Rauka or any of the other nomadic tribes if you want a challenge and dont want to go with almost the exact same strategy as for all other infantry based factions like Baktria.
    Parthia can also be recommended. They also rely heavily on horse archers but at higher level barracks gain some inf and some very tough foot archers. And Parthia also begins with the "Horse" resource giving them better horses from the start of the game.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    As someone who have played both let me put my two cents in.

    As Flash and Broreale mentioned, early units of Saka are really weak. Mostly horse archers with some foots archers plus levy spearmen units, all of them lack armour. Because of this your first two fights are going to be hard with lots of dead on both sides due to firepower Nomadic armies tend to bring. My best advice to you at that point is to have levies tank and die while you try to out shoot enemy horse archers with your own foot archers while doing some flanking action with your own horse archers. Bodyguard units are very powerfull and precious plus they are very well armoured so they can take few arrows, using them well is to key to survival.

    Now, at the start, your position isn't as bad as it looks. Your northern allies will buy you some precious turns, fighting Roxoalani, a fight that they will lose 9 times out of 10. To your southeast is another nomadic tribe of no importance which may try to attack you but most of the time, they will be busy with Baktria and the relative that is the wars between eastern satrapies. You may try to push and take them out, which you should do if opportunity presents itself but go no further. Your most important priority starting the game should be getting a second level barracks in your capital as fast as possible. Why? Because second level barracks unlocks the one and only unit that you need to win the whole game. A catapracht armoured horse archer hybrid that is armoured like a tank, has obscene amount of firepower and can trample lesser armoured light infatry out of existence while going head to head with heavier ones. At first, you will be only able to afford three or four of these guys but thats okay.(Dont be afraid of upkeep and buy as many as you can) With each city or town, you will be able to afford more, not to mention your first ones will likely gain experience. Slowly replace your older, less armoured units. while pushing in one direction.

    I reccomend that you push towards Scythia simply because Scythian have some kickass AOR infantry that can fill the void that is Saka's early infantry Roster. Also their provinces can be economical powerhouses when devoloped correctly. Another reason to go for Scyhtia and other nomadic factions is because taking on Baktria and other eastern factions is Nintendo Hard without an army or two full of those awesome horse archers and leveled up generals plus some armour/weapon upgrades, which you can obtain from the province south of Scythia controlled by Bosphorus. If you want, you try to conquer Sarmatia too, just to get hose juicy AOR Cataphrachts though they can't shoot 360 no scope like your awesome MLG horse tanks.

    From this point on, you can take on anyone though keep in mind of your borders and chokepoints. You will probably have at least two armies filled with these armoured rape machines. Now, good thing is, even at that point, battles will not be easy and boring (with nomadic factions it never is, at least up until reforms) but with AOR units piling up, you will have good unit diversity with which you can try different army compositions. (I remember building a stack with only 4 heavy cav, filling the rest of the slot with Sycthian infatry, they are that good.) Economy might seem tricky but it isn't. It's just that it will take a long time to get some of the buildings needed for efficent economy. Yellow building tree is mostly worthles for nomads with only one or two building being usefull. DO NOT destroy any trading harbour you find unless you need food and they are the lowest tier. Play your cards well, and before long, you will be making enough dosh to afford a full elephant army. (It is more viable than you think and REALLY FUN)

    Also, forgot about building a navy and having sea battle. Horses don't know how to swim.

    For Baktria, i will say that it is like other Hellenic factions with only difference being that you have access to medicore horse archers along with some eastern units and you fight other horse archers factions. You have solid starting position with good chokepoints that allows turtling and your roster allows you a great advantage both early, mid and late game due to AI's incompotence as you can just draw a hoplite wall then fill the rest of your army with archers plus few cavalry then proceed to outshoot all enemy factions.

    I know i said more than what you have asked for but if you don't have time to read any of those then allow me to summarize what i have just said: Roster of Baktria isn't really stronger than Saka, they are pretty equal come late game with slight advantage to Saka. Difference between them is that Saka favours a more dynamic and flexible play style and is considerably harder than any other campaign. I know that i had to restart 4 campaigns before i figured out how to survive with Saka. So if you have played with other factions (especially helenic ones) and have some considerable experience, go for Saka. You will find them pleasantly challenging. Otherwise if you wish to play a hellenic faction but crave for different enemies than good old romans, barbarians and other greeks well go for Baktria.
    Last edited by OverLORDY; October 25, 2015 at 04:03 PM. Reason: Don't you just love grammar errors and typos

  6. #6
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    Aaaand some will be different in version 1.1 as, as I remember the upkeep will be slightly higher meaning that having those OP horse archers will get tricky but its all good as the nomads was too OP in earlier versions.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    What about for enemies? Because i remember other factions already fielding more heavy horse archers than me by the times i built my first one. It might make the Saka campaign unwinnable if you take from the player the ability to at least have some of those Armoured arrow shooting cheese in early game as otherwise, they would be going against higher quality units with nothing but stones and sticks.
    Last edited by OverLORDY; October 25, 2015 at 04:18 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    Quote Originally Posted by OverLORDY View Post
    What about for enemies? Because i remember other factions already fielding more heavy horse archers than me by the times i built my first one. It might make the Saka campaign unwinnable if you take from the player the ability to at least have some of those Armoured arrow shooting cheese in early game as otherwise, they would be going against higher quality units with nothing but stones and sticks.
    To make the start easy against the AI, recruit your own heavy HA hybrid army via mercs and use governors to reduce upkeep, works wonders for my current nomad campaign, you just need 3 to 4 of those heavy ones in the start each stack to go against the AI

  9. #9
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    Since I have actually played version 1.1 for the last couple of months I have some idea of the changes made Tech and traits for Generals which made horse archers OP. Extra ammo, dmg etc all increase upkeep. Though you can use Champions to decrease upkeep it will still be slightly increased. And since they are cav they will also have a higher upkeep. The AI has a much lower upkeep. Its tougher but not unplayable.
    And using governors to reduce upkeep is just a way to exploit the system. Same as saying.. "Just click the formation button" to win battles.
    Economy will be tougher and you might have to recruit less heavy and more light cav but its possible to win if you play well enough.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    @moppido That's the problem. Even the normal ones cost an arm and a leg that you can only have 3 to 4 at best and even then it puts your income to negatives. Buying mercenaries would simply obliterate any income you might have had while not giving you the quality needed to actually make a difference.

    @ FlashHeart07 But that's already a problem with many small factions with lower quality units like Odryssia, Dacia etc. Economy is nearly non existant and at most one and a half armies is all they can muster if they strech their resources thin. They are already crippled by those same upkeep costs while also having lower quality troops against MURDER Swords or INVINCIBLE Hoplites. That decrease upkeep was more of a lifeline rather than an abuse. You guys are just stacking more and more penalties on players because AI can't make intelligent decisions.
    Last edited by OverLORDY; October 25, 2015 at 04:50 PM.

  11. #11
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    As it is you pay.. Approx 100 for light horse archers. Upkeep increases by approx 1% for upgrades.
    But nomades were seriously OP so the changes are good. With skill you are still able to quickly rule the east as the AI sucks at countering you

    Again. We have tested this quite alot and with many different factions. The game is tough but its playable. And if not putting an extra layer of difficulty on the player what then? The game engine puts a stop to most things.
    I have played as the Suebi, Odryssians, Getae, Parthia and various nomadic tribes and Ive still won only I had to think alot more about my decisions.
    Last edited by FlashHeart07; October 25, 2015 at 04:52 PM.

  12. #12
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    There are no murder hoplites in 1.1, read notes or actually criticize after playing before jumping into conclusions. Base upkeep is the same, it only changes as you progress later on.
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    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    True as KAM write. Just started as Parthia and even though I pay higher upkeep than the AI and have a slightly increased upkeep due to unit upgrades, Im tearing through their armies with my light horse archers. Its all about using the strength and weaknesses of the units. The AI even seem to be somewhat smarter though still easy for some

  14. #14

    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    @FlashHeart It is as you say for unarmoured horse archers but again those guys are countered by everything but light infantry and maybe heavy infantry if they gang up on one unit with two or three. Nomads aren't OP as you think, at least at the start. (Later that they get very OP) Especially Saka which was one of the few campaigns that had me restarting more than once or twice. If you don't get to level 2 barracks fast enough, you simply lost as Baktria or other eastern factions pushed from south while Roxalani pushed from north with armoured archers. If you are going to increase upkeeps, then some small factions need a buff to their early game so they can survive when picked by player. I remember how much the game sucked as Odryssian Kingdom until i managed to obtain hoplites and even then it was slugfest that had me drowning in hellenic armies. Let me tell you, only ambush stance and save scumming saved me from defeat on that one.

    @KAM That maybe so, but i was talking about 1.05. And i am not jumping to conclusions either like saying 1.1 will sucks etc. ( I actualy watched your video about combat reworks and such to the end) Just raising some valid concerns. I can't really predict how balance is going to be without playing the mod so at this point only thing i can do is speculate.
    Last edited by OverLORDY; October 25, 2015 at 05:04 PM.

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    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    Sorry to say. But then you need to update your tactics mate. Ive played plenty of campaigns as smaller factions and I only postpone my steamrolling by a certain amount of time. Even with ONLY light horse archers with version 1.1 Im going through the AI like a hot knife through butter. My most recent fight vs the AI who had a stronger army than me.. Lost 100.

  16. #16
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    Pretty much everything changed in 1.1. But again, we did not increase upkeep in early stages. Plus struggle and forcing you to calculate moves, do ambushes etc is what makes small nations the most fun to play instead of steamrolling everything playing the same way.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    @FlashHeart Maybe. After all i don't know at which difficulty you play or what tactics you use.

    @KAM You are correct. That Odryssian campaign was a really fun one and i am not griping about it's difficulty (though it is difficult). I am simply afraid of small factions having being forced to field even less at the start which is a death sentence considering their lower quality units, especially considering you nerfed shooting from back and etc. along with missile troops. (which was mostly how i won battles along with rear cav charges.) Though you said that upkeep increases LATER in campaign... Maybe i am worried over nothing.
    Last edited by OverLORDY; October 25, 2015 at 05:10 PM.

  18. #18
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    Plus like I wrote, almost all changed, for example unit avaibility, balance of certain units vs certain units etc.
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  19. #19
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    Hard or VH. The difference is small. And with nomades its really about Divide Et Impera. Split them up, run them tired and start tearing them apart. Against heavier infantry it can take some time but it can be done.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Baktria or Saka Rauka?

    Hey everyone, Thanks so much for the extensive responses. I do wonder though, how should I handle the Saka economy?
    I am thinking of using livestock and agriculture to support those HA armies

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