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Thread: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

  1. #21
    klesh's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    I put up with the BS DLC policy for 2 games, Empire and Napoleon. I decided I didn't like it, and haven't bought a Total War game since.

    Unfortunately, you guys keep supporting their practice by buying their blood packs, and preorders and then you get a crap product. Its amusing to see from the outside.

    I wish you would not support this kind of practice by SEGA, its the only way it will stop. But no, you simply have to have another carbon copy TW game once a year so for some reason you decide to play right into their hands. Way to go, fellas.
    Still playing Napoleon:TW

  2. #22

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by craziii View Post
    I think people here waaaaaaay over estimate the impact of this small, tiny community. the biggest modding community I know of is for bethesda games and they have zero impact as bethesda gets away with everything under the sun. and I do mean every up thing under the sun.
    You're partly right, however I have a firm belief that this whole fuss around their marketing policy is, this time, going far beyond TWC community and modding in general. Just take a look at the numbers of bad ratings on official released videos. I'm hearing about this on every social media. That being said, I fear, like others have expressed it here, that this move won't make them reconsider the slightliest their already engaged policy. I believe this cut-out DLC will stand and that they will get us, well try to get us, by sweet talking and false advertising.

  3. #23
    Aanker's Avatar Concordant
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    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by klesh View Post
    I put up with the BS DLC policy for 2 games, Empire and Napoleon. I decided I didn't like it, and haven't bought a Total War game since.

    Unfortunately, you guys keep supporting their practice by buying their blood packs, and preorders and then you get a crap product. Its amusing to see from the outside.

    I wish you would not support this kind of practice by SEGA, its the only way it will stop. But no, you simply have to have another carbon copy TW game once a year so for some reason you decide to play right into their hands. Way to go, fellas.
    That's just not true. Although I did my best to defend CA before the Rome II launch, thinking perhaps naively that they had bettered their ways since Empire, I remember having a distinctly bad feeling about the way the game was presented and so I did not preorder. In fact, I waited for the reviews and community backlash and concluded that Rome II was not for me: I was not going to buy another Empire Total War. I did buy Total War Attila after launch at a discount price, based on its reception amongst critics and the community, and I was not disappointed. I really appreciated that game, perhaps because I did not have that bitter Rome II taste still lingering in my mouth, and so I did in fact also purchase the Viking Forefather DLC. The point is however that I don't think I'm a special snowflake. I think there are others out there who have followed roughly the same pattern of hesitating and exercising caution after being scalded by a prior release. With each critical failure through obvious bugs & crash issues or apparent preorder baiting, fan disapproval is going to grow and the hesitation described above will be a more frequent phenomenon.

    CA should want a good community relationship because making poor choices in that respect will lead to repercussions ahead. Heck, they already are, I don't think a Youtube video with less than 10% approval ratings will help attract new customers.

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  4. #24

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by craziii View Post
    I think people here waaaaaaay over estimate the impact of this small, tiny community. .
    This needs to be embroidered, framed and put up on a lot of people's walls. It'd be an overestimate to say the members make up 1% of sales, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by klesh View Post

    Unfortunately, you guys keep supporting their practice by buying their blood packs, and preorders and then you get a crap product. Its amusing to see from the outside.
    Case in point. If no twc member ever bought DLC it would make no difference.
    Last edited by Markas; October 25, 2015 at 02:23 PM.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manu La Canette View Post
    You're partly right, however I have a firm belief that this whole fuss around their marketing policy is, this time, going far beyond TWC community and modding in general. Just take a look at the numbers of bad ratings on official released videos.
    Agreed.

    I also accept a lot us (myself included obvs) over-inflate the significance of community opinion from time to time, but this seems to go way beyond that. We have a situation where we know the community overwhelmingly condemns the current way of doing things and we simultaneously hear even more extreme dissatisfaction coming from what you could class as outside of that community. New accounts and users with less than 50 posts being the most outspoken. Steam discussion pages and youtube comments being filled with outrage from random casuals.

    It's got to a point where it's debatable if there exists a greater dislike for this practice inside the community than out. I can't see how, at some point, this does not translate into a bad decision by SEGA. The community will make up a large part of the long term fanbase who spend large sums potentially - they hate it. Fly-by casuals appear to hate it too and a reasonable proportion will not touch the game at all because of this.

    I guess as Manu says it will be the usual combo of hype and sweeteners to win customers back before release, but this is just damage control whereas decent community relations could have people flocking in.
    Last edited by Fredrin; October 26, 2015 at 06:27 AM.

  6. #26
    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanker View Post
    * Feedback response: this is done through honest, down-to-earth responses to valid feedback. These responses can be felt through actual patches and content, a comment is simply not enough. Whether right or wrong, customers demand more.
    [I]
    This point alone would vastly improve almost every other issue, not to mention that it would greatly reduce the wild speculations fans fabricate sometimes (I'll include myself here).

    They have a gaming staff which mostly visits the forums (and I'm talking about the official ones) to regurgitate rehearsed marketing statements rather than to actually have a real communication with the community (and that's an absolutelly intentional redundancy there, the similarity is not precisely a coincidende etymologically).

    I can get that they don't want to discuss business practices, or just answer with a simple yet understandable "we can't comment on that yet"... but how hard would it be to answer questions about minor details and concerns so small that most likely won't even be referenced in the official announcements? What would exactly be the negative implications of coming to the forums and explaining, for instance, something as harmless as what's the argument behind keeping morrion helmets on imperial troops?

    Why not have a regular Q&A in which they regularly address some of the community's questions and concerns? And not just from the community staff but also from actual designers, artists and programmers. Even if the answers were negative, an honest reply would get a much more positive response from the community than just overhyping the parts they can show off to later let the fans crash frontally with a hard wall of disappointment, with the subsequent tide of anger. And with Q&A I am not talking about "ok we are going to speak about some stuff we had planned to announce to hype you" or just obvious remarks (such as "yes we will add more factions in the next games", or "yes we will still show more stuff before release") but as actual answers of fan questions.


    It gets annoying that we know more about this:



    ... than about very commented topics such as the state of the imperial design or the exclusion of banners.



    (By the way, I just visited the store and I found hilarious that they are selling this: )
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; October 25, 2015 at 08:07 PM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    This point alone would vastly improve almost every other issue, not to mention that it would greatly reduce the wild speculations fans fabricate sometimes (I'll include myself here).

    They have a gaming staff which mostly visits the forums (and I'm talking about the official ones) to regurgitate rehearsed marketing statements rather than to actually have a real communication with the community (and that's an absolutelly intentional redundancy there, the similarity is not precisely a coincidende etymologically).

    I can get that they don't want to discuss business practices, or just answer with a simple yet understandable "we can't comment on that yet"... but how hard would it be to answer questions about minor details and concerns so small that most likely won't even be referenced in the official announcements? What would exactly be the negative implications of coming to the forums and explaining, for instance, something as harmless as what's the argument behind keeping morrion helmets on imperial troops?

    Why not have a regular Q&A in which they regularly address some of the community's questions and concerns? And not just from the community staff but also from actual designers, artists and programmers. Even if the answers were negative, an honest reply would get a much more positive response from the community than just overhyping the parts they can show off to later let the fans crash frontally with a hard wall of disappointment, with the subsequent tide of anger. And with Q&A I am not talking about "ok we are going to speak about some stuff we had planned to announce to hype you" or just obvious remarks (such as "yes we will add more factions in the next games", or "yes we will still show more stuff before release") but as actual answers of fan questions.


    It gets annoying that we know more about this:



    ... than about very commented topics such as the state of the imperial design or the exclusion of banners.



    (By the way, I just visited the store and I found hilarious that they are selling this: )
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    If I had to guess it's that they'll never be down to earth and speak frankly because they're probably all half scared poopless of getting fired.

    I am still curious to the story about Rome 2's release siege AI, and how obvious the entire staff there had to know of it's state. We'll never know the details, unless someone gets fired and they have no reason to speak frankly about the situation.

  8. #28
    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidtheDuke View Post
    If I had to guess it's that they'll never be down to earth and speak frankly because they're probably all half scared poopless of getting fired.
    Well, that should be the prerrogative of the entire company, not just of the community staff. And honestly, being the public face (specially when its CA we are talking about) is not preciselly the most stable of jobs, so they might as well leave a good impression while it lasts rather than just taking the crap for decissions made by some faceless executive in which they most likely had nothing to do with.

    In any case, even if they just care about money (which is legit as a business), I don't get what do they exactly gain by keeping a sizeable (and very vocal) chunk of the community permanently pissed. I see no one complaining to crowdfunded developers who essentially straight ask for money to expand their games with additional content and features, all but the contrary, they have people donating ridiculous amounts of money (for a game) just because the devs often give an impression of honesty, ambition and actual interest in the project, making the fans feel like they are actually making the realization of a game they really want to play possible. I have even seen developers talk about their games being buggy with total naturalness and there was no uproar about it because people know that game development is not like walking a bed of roses. The uproar comes when customers perceive dishonesty.

  9. #29

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    http://imgur.com/EfTITfa
    banning people seems to be a good way to kill of your community, this happended after they closed the petition on steam
    Last edited by nosuchname; October 26, 2015 at 05:59 AM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Well said, Higo. I think there's a lot sense in your posts above.

    The issue here is that, funny and likable though the guys in the community team are, they're not being given anything of substance by their higher-ups and there's only so long that The Office-style humour and mini-announcements are going to deflect from the issues which the pissed off segment of the community want to hear about.

    I wouldn't blame Craig CA et al if they'd become so inured to the over-dramatized solicitations of some parts of the community that they are now fully desensitized to them But... there comes a point when this does become a bit of an oversight, as we are now talking about tens of thousands of customers who feel very strongly about this, as well as an army of game critics like Angry Joe, Raymond Sanity and Jim Sterling who are using it to advance a powerful anti-corporate message, citing CA/SEGA as prime offenders.

    If I was to have a stab at anyone at CA whose purview this might fall under, I'd say it was Rob Bartholomew, their Brand Director and member of Senior Management in charge of community and PR. Maybe he could be working a bit harder to get a statement out of SEGA or to give the community guys something to present as a response to all the backlash.

    I feel bad for Joey having to come out with things like "we strongly recommend you don't buy anything you don't believe in". It may not be intended to be, but it sounds glib and stuff like that will rub up DLC-haters even more. If more of an effort was made towards creating a connection in people's minds between the money generated by preorder initiatives and the kind of exciting content that it will be used to create and the nice people at CA that it's being used to employ, there would doubtless be a lot more sympathy for the practice.

    In general, though, just a bit more casual communication between all departments of CA and the community would prevent all this ill feeling from fomenting. And, for balance, the community could do its bit by not being so needy and quick to seize on instances when CA either don't deliver or make mistakes.
    Last edited by Fredrin; October 26, 2015 at 06:19 AM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Well, that should be the prerrogative of the entire company, not just of the community staff. And honestly, being the public face (specially when its CA we are talking about) is not preciselly the most stable of jobs, so they might as well leave a good impression while it lasts rather than just taking the crap for decissions made by some faceless executive in which they most likely had nothing to do with.

    In any case, even if they just care about money (which is legit as a business), I don't get what do they exactly gain by keeping a sizeable (and very vocal) chunk of the community permanently pissed. I see no one complaining to crowdfunded developers who essentially straight ask for money to expand their games with additional content and features, all but the contrary, they have people donating ridiculous amounts of money (for a game) just because the devs often give an impression of honesty, ambition and actual interest in the project, making the fans feel like they are actually making the realization of a game they really want to play possible. I have even seen developers talk about their games being buggy with total naturalness and there was no uproar about it because people know that game development is not like walking a bed of roses. The uproar comes when customers perceive dishonesty.
    That's what I mean: The superiors are probably more like the guys running Call of Duty than they are Paradox, and this attitude/philosophy and "official-speak" filters down to the rest of the company or you're fired for not toeing the company line. My guess is execs are contemptuous of the TW community (not unfounded to a large extent) and never want to admit mistakes. This is primarily the reason I don't think they'll renege on the preorder deal.

  12. #32

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidtheDuke View Post
    That's what I mean: The superiors are probably more like the guys running Call of Duty than they are Paradox, and this attitude/philosophy and "official-speak" filters down to the rest of the company or you're fired for not toeing the company line. My guess is execs are contemptuous of the TW community (not unfounded to a large extent) and never want to admit mistakes. This is primarily the reason I don't think they'll renege on the preorder deal.
    Yeah, probably a combination of things.

    SEGA execs may not be fully aware of the extent the policy is disliked as CA are less than keen in allowing it to filter up (lest it reflect badly on them)

    What preorder rage they are aware of, they are probably contemptuous of because in their reckoning it doesn't represent a big enough threat to their sales for them to bother with (extremely short-sighted imo)

    Even if they did perceive it to be a problem worth addressing, the aversion to performing a U-turn in corporate culture would most likely prevent them from doing anything.

    Also, a lack of imagination and understanding of the community at the top precludes a more sensible way of incentivizing players to buy while not also alienating a large portion of them.

    Basically, whoever's responsibility it is to communicate these problems to SEGA and propose a convincing alternative strategy is not doing a very good job. Even if the game drops only 10,000 sales due to business practice protest, that's half a million quid, stacking to much more over the course of three games and a load of DLC. Probably enough to keep 10 or more highly skilled staff on their books for the duration of the trilogy's dev cycle. That's enough of an argument right there to at least try and address the problem. I don't think the usual formula of FreeLC and hype videos is really getting to the root of the problem.
    Last edited by Fredrin; October 26, 2015 at 09:03 AM.

  13. #33

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    I think one thing the several posters above me are missing is it is very hard to measure how many people would have purchased a product but did not for one reason or another.

    The only number they know is 100% accurate is how many purchased. They can do very reliable projections based off prior sales and other market data. They can not get very reliable numbers about how many would of bought this game but did not because of DLC practices.

    Corporations run off the more reliable numbers and continually work towards providing less for more until the consumers finally had enough. Just the nature of the beast of an organization that strives to increase profits every year.

    My experience in the corporate world somewhat related to this.

    I got quarterly and yearly bonuses each being based on projections of expenses and revenue. It was actually better for me to make choices that increased earnings or decreased cost in the short run. The options for the long term savings or increased earnings would most likely earn me less money. Not only that it would earn the people above me less money and I would get pressured from above.

    So my guess what most of the decision makers are considering over at SEGA and CA is are not about effects 1-2 years down the road but what can bring in the most money now.

    Pre-order DLC for a faction(s) were used for Rome 2 and it had the highest number of pre-orders in the history of the franchise.

  14. #34

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrin View Post
    Basically, whoever's responsibility it is to communicate these problems to SEGA and propose a convincing alternative strategy is not doing a very good job. Even if the game drops only 10,000 sales due to business practice protest, that's half a million quid, stacking to much more over the course of three games and a load of DLC. Probably enough to keep 10 or more highly skilled staff on their books for the duration of the trilogy's dev cycle. That's enough of an argument right there to at least try and address the problem. I don't think the usual formula of FreeLC and hype videos is really getting to the root of the problem.
    Well, if I were CA right now I'd just agree and amplify: Change the price to $75 with Chaos included and no DLC... with the preorder price still at $60. That'd show their position and what cards they think they really have. They think everyone is going to buy Chaos post release, and they think their base game is actually 5 factions @ $75. That's a reasonable price to me, and if the community doesn't think so, it shouldn't buy it. However I'm pretty sure it'd start flailing it's arms around wildly.

  15. #35
    bigdaddy1204's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrin View Post
    I have some graphs from the recent Attila survey that might be helpful in this regard:

    Fig. 1

    Attachment 331559

    Fig. 2
    Attachment 331560


    The graphs show responses from approx 2,500 community members who were drawn primarily from the TW SubReddit but with many coming from TWC, Steam and the Official forums too...... Get the hell out of that ivory tower and explain how your business model can actually benefit the franchise and, in turn, your customers!
    Hi Fredrin, thanks for sharing this excellent post. I found it really interesting. As a journalist, I know that a lot of companies actually PAY people to produce reports very similar to that post you have just written - and you did it free of charge. I really felt that CA needs to see this information. So I went on twitter, and I found CA's official account and tweeted them both the graphs that you shared, and a link to your post. I believe that this is exactly what they need to see.

    Thanks for sharing, and I will keep you posted.

    bigdaddy1204.

  16. #36

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Last edited by nosuchname; October 26, 2015 at 09:50 AM.

  17. #37
    bigdaddy1204's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanker View Post
    That's just not true. Although I did my best to defend CA before the Rome II launch, thinking perhaps naively that they had bettered their ways since Empire, I remember having a distinctly bad feeling about the way the game was presented and so I did not preorder. In fact, I waited for the reviews and community backlash and concluded that Rome II was not for me: I was not going to buy another Empire Total War. I did buy Total War Attila after launch at a discount price, based on its reception amongst critics and the community, and I was not disappointed. I really appreciated that game, perhaps because I did not have that bitter Rome II taste still lingering in my mouth, and so I did in fact also purchase the Viking Forefather DLC. The point is however that I don't think I'm a special snowflake. I think there are others out there who have followed roughly the same pattern of hesitating and exercising caution after being scalded by a prior release. With each critical failure through obvious bugs & crash issues or apparent preorder baiting, fan disapproval is going to grow and the hesitation described above will be a more frequent phenomenon.

    CA should want a good community relationship because making poor choices in that respect will lead to repercussions ahead. Heck, they already are, I don't think a Youtube video with less than 10% approval ratings will help attract new customers.
    I agree with this post.

    When Medieval 2 Total War was released, I was bitterly disappointed. It was full of bugs, and my favourite faction (the Byzantines) was presented horribly and the campaign was just garbage, the diplomacy did not work as advertised and I stopped playing the game after a couple of months. After that, I decided that I was not going to buy another Total War game, and so when Empire came out I didn't buy it.

    Since then, years have gone by. I bought Attila, which I liked so much that I went on Amazon and left a 5-star review of the game. As it happens, my review of Attila is rated as the "Most helpful" review on Amazon, which means it is the first one that shows up when people go on Amazon to read the customer reviews.

    So Aanker is right - it does cost CA money to get it wrong, since I didn't buy their game. And it does pay to get it right, as I did leave a positive review on Attila which has probably inspired a lot of people to buy the game.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1204; October 26, 2015 at 09:48 AM.

  18. #38

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    Hi Fredrin, thanks for sharing this excellent post. I found it really interesting. As a journalist, I know that a lot of companies actually PAY people to produce reports very similar to that post you have just written - and you did it free of charge. I really felt that CA needs to see this information. So I went on twitter, and I found CA's official account and tweeted them both the graphs that you shared, and a link to your post. I believe that this is exactly what they need to see.

    Thanks for sharing, and I will keep you posted.

    bigdaddy1204.
    Thanks, bigdaddy - greatly appreciated. That's precisely the kind of exposure that I can imagine actually having some traction with CA/SEGA as opposed to a lot of pissed off comments on game forums, which for the most part I'm sure the execs write off as a closed ideology echo chamber from which nothing productive originates.

    The main reason why I started the survey in the first place was to take people away from the usual "hater vs defender" mosh-pit and afford them a chance to objectively express feedback in a form that might even be presentable to seniors and SEGA execs.

    I have the data from 3 separate surveys answered by up to 5,000 people each, much of which serves to highlight the enormous disconnect between community opinion and business practice (and to a lesser extent in the case of Rome II, game design itself). I'd be happy to work with you to develop an article on this... or any publication you might think be interested and would approach the subject matter responsibly. CA could legitimately be used as a very interesting case study in what happens when a striving indie developer hits the big time and becomes divorced from the interests of the fanbase that helped it make its name.

    If the trend continues with Warhammer, I might actually consider proactively approaching media outlets with this brief for an article in mind. In the meantime, will be interesting to hear if anything comes of that tweet.
    Last edited by Fredrin; October 26, 2015 at 11:18 AM.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrin View Post
    I have the data from 3 separate surveys answered by up to 5,000 people each, much of which serves to highlight the enormous disconnect between community opinion and business practice (and to a lesser extent in the case of Rome II, game design itself).
    They really should be paying you to do this, as you're basically doing them a massive service. In fact, there should be somebody at CA whose job it is to report back on community engagement. I don't know who this person is, but it might be interesting to see if said person can be found - I recall back in the day, the official CA-run total war forums on their own website did occasionally have posts from CA employees. Might be worth seeking them out and direct messaging them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrin View Post
    I'd be happy to work with you to develop an article on this... or any publication you might think be interested and would approach the subject matter responsibly. CA could legitimately be used as a very interesting case study in what happens when a striving indie developer hits the big time and becomes divorced from the interests of the fanbase that helped it make its name.

    If the trend continues with Warhammer, I might actually consider proactively approaching media outlets with this brief for an article in mind. In the meantime, will be interesting to hear if anything comes of that tweet.
    If I was in the games sector I'd gladly take up your offer. As it is I write about finance so I couldn't write something directly. But I would absolutely recommend you to actively approach media outlets and suggest this as an article. Why wait? Do it now. They'd be mad not to take this up, especially given that Rome II is now infamous. I read an article in PC gamer which lists Rome II as one of "The worst launches in PC gaming history". http://www.pcgamer.com/the-worst-pc-game-launches/ And even more so, given the hype over the upcoming Warhammer release.

    There are also a number of well-known personalities on YouTube who have made a name for themselves covering Total War and other games. One that springs to mind is Angry Joe, whose video on "Why Rome II Failed" has been viewed nearly 3 million times.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_QK-lcW8a8

    Could be worth approaching him and other prominent YouTube users who post Total War reviews. YouTube is serious business these days - for example, user PewDiePie has achieved over 10 billion views for his YouTube videos, gaining him more viewers than the entire CNN network.

    Will definitely let you know if I hear back on that tweet. Good luck! And feel free to PM me if you need any help/tips for getting in touch with journalists.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1204; October 26, 2015 at 11:42 AM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    There are also a number of well-known personalities on YouTube who have made a name for themselves covering Total War and other games. One that springs to mind is Angry Joe, whose video on "Why Rome II Failed" has been viewed nearly 3 million times.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_QK-lcW8a8

    Could be worth approaching him and other prominent YouTube users who post Total War reviews. YouTube is serious business these days - for example, user PewDiePie has achieved over 10 billion views for his YouTube videos, gaining him more viewers than the entire CNN network.

    Will definitely let you know if I hear back on that tweet. Good luck! And feel free to PM me if you need any help/tips for getting in touch with journalists.
    He already has, check his latest video. He got the Chaos announcement video down voted by 26,000 people.

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