How Could CA Improve their Relationship with the Community?

[Aanker]

By the powers normally bestowed upon the OP, please observe that any discussion herein that is not constructive in nature is strictly off-topic.

Introduction

CA has a community relationship problem. I sadly do not have any specific statistics to show this, but judging by the mass 66% downvote rating of their recent Youtube video featuring the preorder DLC news, it doesn't seem like an altogether distant conclusion. Other videos with... Similar content... have been received in the same fashion. The problem also surfaces in the negative opinions expressed here and on other forums where CA products are discussed.

Does CA ultimately deserve this reputation? Although the subject of this particular topic, CA and SEGA are strictly speaking businesses. Their purpose is not to be friends with everyone and anyone; a business is supposed to run a profit... But sales can be increased with a healthy community relationship! Here, we are going to try to make suggestions to CA on how to improve their community status, whether the current slump is deserved or not.

A Good Example

I think CD Projekt Red sets a pretty solid example for the rest of the gaming industry with regards to DLC policies, preorders and community relationships. At least, that is the perception of the potential buyer. And the potential buyer is all that matters. Heck, in some respect I think CDPR could increase the pricing of their games given the popularity and legitimacy the enjoy at the moment, because a Witcher game is regarded as a worthwhile investment. And while CDPR is by no means flawless as a developer (given the obvious misrepresentation of game graphics between the various E3 demonstrations), they seem to have gotten a few things right:

* Preorders: neither non-essential nor banal. A preordering customer is supposed to be rewarded, because purchasing the game early is done with some degree of confidence that the product will deliver. But the non-preordering customer should have the chance to appreciate the game after release without feeling cheated for waiting. That's why a preorder reward should follow the pattern of non-essential content; something that does not feel integral to the experience of the game.
* DLC done right: additional content is additional. It is non-essential to the main experience of the game, and rather feels like branches growing out in whichever direction the player would like to explore through purchases.
* Maintenance of the trunk, non-DLC game: free missions, textures and items included in maintenance patches rolled out for the base game. This entices the customer to perhaps reward the company with auxilliary purchases of DLC.
* Feedback response: this is done through honest, down-to-earth responses to valid feedback. These responses can be felt through actual patches and content, a comment is simply not enough. Whether right or wrong, customers demand more.

Non-Essential Content

A point of contention when discussing DLC and preorders is the degree to which a company is entitled to create "premium content" during development of the main game or its patches. Customers nowadays understand that companies need to make a profit. Most people accept good DLC. But why does a preorder bonus such as the Chaos Warriors pack cause such an uproar? The reason is that, without the DLC installed, players feel like an essential component of the game is missing. The game is weak because of the missing content. "Ah!", says the company, "it is not missing. Look here!", is the common response. This type of maneuver only highlights the ruse that the customer has just been subjected to. If the DLC content does not appear to be missing from the game in the first place, offering (for example) additional factions will be appreciated as adding to an already strong base game. Objectively through some laws of philosophy, this might not be true, but it is what the potential buyer perceives. And the potential buyer is all that matters.

CA is making critical mistakes in especially this respect.

The Way Forward

CA should immediately redact the Chaos Warriors pack preorder offer in some way, shape or form, or compensate by making the faction unlockable for free in the base game (for instance, by completing the campaigns of all other factions). This might be undesirable in some respects, and send the message that CA does not know what it is currently doing, but in the long run a solid community relationship can only be built up step by step through precise and specific measures such as these. Explaining the expansion plan further would be another excellent maneuver - expansions certainly have less negative connotations than DLC. A framework must also be established where CA maybe not explicitly, but at least implicitly, provides guarantees that essential components of the game will not be missing for non-DLC buyers. Otherwise, customers will be wondering what other components than a faction might be missing from their purchase.

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This is a merger of two similar threads. Click here too jump to Fredrin's "What can CA do to win back your trust before release?" op.

[Abdülmecid I]

CA is a victim of its own success. Their PR campaign was so successful that there's still some bitterness left since the disappointing release. Anyway, the problem with PR is that they usually are in a direct conflict with profit. A customer is happy when he pays less, but the company must make him pay more... The key is to find the perfect balance between PR and profit, to make the player has happy as possible with spending as less as possible. Your first two solutions, for example, have the disadvantage that non-essential content will be bought by less people, so CA takes the risk to upset some of its customers, but also hoping that the popularity of the DL content will get them more money than that lost by the number of frustrated customers. The third option has been adopted by CA (see the seasons update and some of the Free DLCs), but in a limited number, because creating them means the loss of time and money that spent be used to create something that would get them profit. The fourth suggestion is actually the best choice, almost free and potentially very useful. But they lost the trust of their fanbase after the release of R2 and some PR guys don't look very confident, with stereotyped answers and inability to integrate themselves to the community.

[Person012345]

Paradox do some epic DLC whoring but largely still maintain good relations with the community. I think the release of free stuff (content and improvements) alongside the DLCs helps people feel like they aren't being screwed over. Most of the content in the expansions is fairly solid and not having them won't take away from your enjoyment of the game since they're additional content. Solid base game, then additional content and mechanics released on top in expansions. The cheap DLC is pretty much all cosmetic, take it or leave it stuff. You don't feel like any content was cut out of the game so it could be sold as DLC. It goes without saying that putting chaos as a DLC in a warhammer game looks a lot like you cut content out of the base game (or one of the trilogy - we knew they wouldn't be in the first one but a lot of people assumed they'd be in one of the mainline games) so that you could flog it for extra money. I think that's what has people so angry, the same as the greek states DLC did (again, not having the greek states in rome is a baffling omission that can only adequately be explained by it having been left out of the main game primarily to sell as DLC). On top of that, CA has a history of horrible releases and they still have bugs and issues in their games that have been lingering for half a decade or more. They just give off the impression that they don't care about the consumer or the product, all they care about is your money. That's why a good chunk of the community hates them.

[Costin_Razvan]

It would go a long way if they stopped doing scummy stuff like the recent DLC instead of it getting worse every year.

[DavidtheDuke]

My guess is the sales are satisfactory so they're not changing. I mean, that sucks in a way, but it shows either the development costs too much or they're just inept and out of touch. Not really seeing a fix here other than not buying their stuff even harder. Personally I don't think the preorder DLC is so egregious when you can just return the game now.

CA/SEGA/whatever wants more than $60 for Warhammer or $60 early on, obviously. I don't have a problem with this if the actual game is that good. If it wasn't that good I wouldnt' pay much. I've done this with DLC for Attila and R2, only buying at discounts, it's just too much the same to justify the prices. Here though, I think so.

I do expect them to announce more DLC before the game is released however. Heck I'd expect DLC announcements 3 months or more before release, even.

[Manu La Canette]

Amen to that.

Paradox do some epic DLC whoring but largely still maintain good relations with the community. I think the release of free stuff (content and improvements) alongside the DLCs helps people feel like they aren't being screwed over. Most of the content in the expansions is fairly solid and not having them won't take away from your enjoyment of the game since they're additional content. Solid base game, then additional content and mechanics released on top in expansions. The cheap DLC is pretty much all cosmetic, take it or leave it stuff. You don't feel like any content was cut out of the game so it could be sold as DLC. It goes without saying that putting chaos as a DLC in a warhammer game looks a lot like you cut content out of the base game (or one of the trilogy - we knew they wouldn't be in the first one but a lot of people assumed they'd be in one of the mainline games) so that you could flog it for extra money. I think that's what has people so angry, the same as the greek states DLC did (again, not having the greek states in rome is a baffling omission that can only adequately be explained by it having been left out of the main game primarily to sell as DLC). On top of that, CA has a history of horrible releases and they still have bugs and issues in their games that have been lingering for half a decade or more. They just give off the impression that they don't care about the consumer or the product, all they care about is your money. That's why a good chunk of the community hates them.

What they did to Europa Universalis IV with their last big DLC although is even beyond whoring, it's like calling for more money if you want to enjoy futher a game you paid full price. Basically right now you can't enjoy a game on EUIV without this DLC because it actually force new mechanisms into everybody's game (even those like me who don't own the DLC) without offering the possibility to respond to those mechanisms (i.e. construction and stuff). You want to make DLCs, fine, but I don't want them to interfere with my vanilla game if I don't own them, because it prevents me from enjoying a software I bought. I mean this is just so lame from Paradox... The bright side is that those idiots don't seem aware of the possibility to play on Steam with pirated version of their games including all DLCs (the total amount of those must be around 200€ or something like this...). The thing I regret is that I gave them a load of money before feeling cheated by those thugs.

[Person012345]

Amen to that.



What they did to Europa Universalis IV with their last big DLC although is even beyond whoring, it's like calling for more money if you want to enjoy futher a game you paid full price. Basically right now you can't enjoy a game on EUIV without this DLC because it actually force new mechanisms into everybody's game (even those like me who don't own the DLC) without offering the possibility to respond to those mechanisms (i.e. construction and stuff). You want to make DLCs, fine, but I don't want them to interfere with my vanilla game if I don't own them, because it prevents me from enjoying a software I bought. I mean this is just so lame from Paradox... The bright side is that those idiots don't seem aware of the possibility to play on Steam with pirated version of their games including all DLCs (the total amount of those must be around 200€ or something like this...). The thing I regret is that I gave them a load of money before feeling cheated by those thugs.

You're wrong. I've seen this argument before (I assume you're referring to development?). It adds in a new, less efficient way of playing. If you don't have the DLC then it's largely the same as before isn't it, except construction which has been reworked (for the worse) for everyone, and is largely useless now imo whether you have the DLC or not. The only worthwhile buildings are things like manpower boosters in certain circumstances. If you don't like those changes then you'll have to roll back to a previous version of the game (something you can do). Could you tell me what exactly you believe to be mandatory about it?

[Rebel1776]

What they did to Europa Universalis IV with their last big DLC although is even beyond whoring, it's like calling for more money if you want to enjoy futher a game you paid full price. Basically right now you can't enjoy a game on EUIV without this DLC because it actually force new mechanisms into everybody's game (even those like me who don't own the DLC) without offering the possibility to respond to those mechanisms (i.e. construction and stuff). You want to make DLCs, fine, but I don't want them to interfere with my vanilla game if I don't own them, because it prevents me from enjoying a software I bought. I mean this is just so lame from Paradox... The bright side is that those idiots don't seem aware of the possibility to play on Steam with pirated version of their games including all DLCs (the total amount of those must be around 200€ or something like this...). The thing I regret is that I gave them a load of money before feeling cheated by those thugs.

While the Common Sense changes to development are debatable regarding if you had the DLC or not, calling Paradox "thugs" is highly out of line given the other literal Expansions they've released. So the game overall costs about 200 bucks without a steam sale, so what? They do complete mechanic overhauls to the base game, with an already solid base game. Such overhauls in fact that I find it unbearable to return to a previous iteration, that's what we call a real expansion and justification for money well spent. The ONLY exception to Paradox's "DLC Whoring" that should bear any remote criticism is the forced implementation of Development on people unwilling to purchase the DLC for whatever inexplicable reason, short of personal budget is tight. Are you suggesting that Paradox should just do minor updates with even longer gaps between mechanic overhauls, but expect them to be the same price for more content given per expansion/DLC? Or are you suggesting something even more impractical by suggesting they release mechanic overhauls for free so they lose the "Whoring" reputation they've so wrongly received?

Paradox taking the approach of maintaining the longevity of their titles by releasing more content overhauls for their existing product should be praised given how companies seem to churn out new iterations of the same title year after year with little progression in terms of content or depth to the product for the full price of a fresh out of the box new title. To prevent any further comparison on this matter, I will say that comparing EU IV's Development debate to Warhammer's likely most important race being omitted from the base game to people who chose to buy POST-Release, is simply perposterous. You can get by without improving province development in EU IV, you might not like it that much, but just go Wide. Chaos, a key player in the world of Warhammer being a forced as an additional cost to people waiting for reviews of the released game, shame on you CA, shame.

Yes Manu, I know you didnt talk about CA's current DLC garbage, that last part was included for any other individual that dared make a damning comparison of the two.

You're wrong. I've seen this argument before (I assume you're referring to development?). It adds in a new, less efficient way of playing. If you don't have the DLC then it's largely the same as before isn't it, except construction which has been reworked (for the worse) for everyone, and is largely useless now imo whether you have the DLC or not. The only worthwhile buildings are things like manpower boosters in certain circumstances. If you don't like those changes then you'll have to roll back to a previous version of the game (something you can do). Could you tell me what exactly you believe to be mandatory about it?

I'd disagree that most buildings are useless so long as you build VERY tall, otherwise they're marginal increases until you reach a certain point of development. Pros and Cons of Percentage-based increases as compared to Flat ones.

[Person012345]

I'd disagree that most buildings are useless so long as you build VERY tall, otherwise they're marginal increases until you reach a certain point of development. Pros and Cons of Percentage-based increases as compared to Flat ones.

Well, I think most games by most people won't be built very tall. It's an inefficient and relatively difficult way of playing (it's much less expensive to conquer and core new land than it is to develop existing land). Fun to do, but I don't think the majority of most people's games. Anyway, I personally find buil;ding now to be of very limited utility and although I didn't like it at first I have come to the idea that you simply have to play differently now.

[The Despondent Mind]

OP made it really clear, CD Projekt Red is mostly very nice and listens to it's community and guess what, Witcher games MAKE MONEY. As a matter of fact DICE, EA's puppet listens more to it's community and gives huge free dlc for Battlefield 4. 343, Microsoft puppet announced free dlc and other stuff when they screw'd up with Halo Master Chief Collection, hell Ubisoft gave free dlc or a free game if you already have all dlc's for all those hurt by AC Unity!

I would really like to see CA give some medium sized DLC to some final edition of RTW2 and Atilla, but alas likelihood of that happening is next to impossible.

Fact is, CA/SEGA are at the bottom of greedy like Konami and Warner Brothers.

[Woody0]

OP you already pointed it with posting CD PorkJekt DLC and Pre-order bonus standards.

What upsets me with the Chaos DLC is it is a major part of the game and I feel I am being punished for being a cautious consumer. If I do not pre-order I do not get access to a major faction and part of the game unless I pay more after release.

They are already asking a premium price for the game and to top that off if I do not give them money now I need to pay more.

For them to get my money now they need to include Chaos as a playable faction with out needing to pre-purchase or buy a DLC.

[LinusLinothorax]

So the game overall costs about 200 bucks without a steam sale, so what?

Lol.

They do complete mechanic overhauls to the base game, with an already solid base game.

The base game was to 90% a blatant copy of EU3. They dont even changed the UI.

[Ichon]

Make a great game first and foremost- then make a classic trilogy that other companies try to emulate.

People are only this pissy with money when the quality standards are somewhat lacking.

[Clone1710]

Although I agree with the points made here, I have to add that they simply cannot make everybody happy. There will always be people that are angry because of this or that, and those people tend to be the most vocal.

[Sharpe]

Not much, so long as they dance to the tune of Sega, and so long as Sega wishes to compete with the big boys. CA are just grunts.

[yukishiro1]

CA has built a reputation for itself by releasing half-baked product after half-backed product. The shameless DLC nickle and diming would be forgiven if they delivered good products in the first place. They don't. And then when they start talking about day-one DLC 6 months before the game has released, it just sends completely the wrong message.

Build a reputation for making good, finished games in the first place and people may not like day-one DLC but they'll tolerate it.

Build a reputation for delivering buggy, feature-stripped, incomplete games and people will rightly flay your company for also releasing day-one DLC when the base game itself doesn't work. When you clearly have taken content out of the base game and relabeled it as DLC that just makes it even worse.

Basically it is not hard to avoid developing a bad reputation in the first place but once you have a bad reputation it is a lot of hard work to rebuild it. And instead of doing that hard work CA is going in the opposite direction and continuing to dig holes for itself.

[Red Dox]

Problem: Everyone everywhere says every Total War game is a bug ridden mess by release.
Solution: Take more time and probably beta testing to make it a better game on launch. Nowaday, it does not need to be perfect when the Devs do a long run support (which CA seems to do with their products) but a better state then previous title should be achieved.

Problem: Highprice on the product. Yes, prices are different, people complain everytime regardless which price and the keyselling market is a constant thorn in the side of the industry. But PC players do not want to pay "console retail" prices. It is simple as that. We also do not want to pay someone like Steam extra money to *use* the multiplayer on our bought games. Remember that GFWL tried to adept that concept on PC early on? Anyway, the 60€ price tag is to much for the game. Especially since we now already that two standalone expansions and a of DLC will come after.
Solution: Go down to a more reasonable price, like 45€. Yes, with all the keysellers and discounts a lot of games will go for lot less but you will get a playerbase for your DLC in the end and the people are less complaining.

Problem: We all know that the DLC train goes full speed with this triology. And we probably do not care in the most cases.
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php...1445541719.png
You want to put the 15 main armybooks and Chaos dwarfs in the game, and we want them too. We get it that not everyone is in the three games itself. Even if 4 races would be in each game, the math is simple. And concerning the huge unit rooster of each book, I expect three races with each expansion. And then we have in the races/armybooks itself several factions that could get their own little DLCs (like nightgoblins with legendary Skarsnik, the forgeworld squig monsters and some new textures for different tribes/heroes/banners or entire Skaven clans, god specific chaos warbands with iconic looks and legendary lord, etc.). New quest for legendary charaters, new legendary charakters, new maps/battlefields/architecture or special events like "Geheimnisnacht". The possibilities are there and I think mostly we would appreciate them (if the DLC costs are on a logical footing. I had my own trouble with some, not all, DoW2 skinpacks costing a little to much for what they did).
But, and now comes the actual problem, six months for release you announce one of the most popular armybooks as preorder DLC/pay to play DLC day#1. That sends entirly a wrong message. We suspected that some Chaos troops are in the campaignmode. Most of us assumed it wouldn´t be enough troops for a own playable faction. But they are and instead of making them the fifth playable race included in the game, you run the scammy way. I get why you did it, I (and other people) just don't like it one bit.
And then there is the next problem that we don't see marks and god specific units from the armybook in that DLC included. Could be cool, if the missing things will be listetd in the months to come. Would be really uncool if we see another pay to play DLC (or several, each for one god) for the missing units. Things like that are pissing annoyed potential buyers even more off.
Solution: You should really take a hard look on your DLC policy and maybe take some steps back if it is so bad as we fear now (like one money DLC for each god to get marked Chaos Warriors). With the already promoted Chaos DLC, the ship is sailed. You could announce that after the feedback you got you do make it free for everyone as a good will gesture but even if that would help to gain some trust back, the next "screw up" DLC would ignite the flames anew. As a solution I would say really, really try to make every armybook as completly as possible. That counts for those that goes in the games itself and for those in DLCs. Don't scratch some units for seperate DLCs later. Take the Forgeworld units for DLC, or dig up some classic units not in the armybooks anymore. Or invent new ones, since GW already destroyed the world, they should not care

Problem: Announcing the day#1 DLC faction before we saw a Vampire trailer, was a massive -up. Even if it boosts your preorder sales. Having the unit rooster for the DLC looking complete is another mistake since we have not seen the roosters for the other armies. For greenskins, I do not know if Squigs are in or not. Haven't seen a pump waggon or a stonethrower either (but since dwarf grudgethrower was shon, I think catapults are in for everyone who has one). It feels not right that we know more about a day one DLC then an entire playable race that is in the games.
Solution: To late to do something about it or fix this mess. Just give us the infos about missing units and complete Vampires in the coming months and do not announce another cash in day#1 DLC first...and try to avoid such a situation with the next two games.

-----Red Dox

[englisharcher89]

Problem: Announcing the day#1 DLC faction before we saw a Vampire trailer, was a massive -up. Even if it boosts your preorder sales. Having the unit rooster for the DLC looking complete is another mistake since we have not seen the roosters for the other armies. For greenskins, I do not know if Squigs are in or not. Haven't seen a pump waggon or a stonethrower either (but since dwarf grudgethrower was shon, I think catapults are in for everyone who has one). It feels not right that we know more about a day one DLC then an entire playable race that is in the games.
Solution: To late to do something about it or fix this mess. Just give us the infos about missing units and complete Vampires in the coming months and do not announce another cash in day#1 DLC first...and try to avoid such a situation with the next two games.

-----Red Dox

THIS THIS THIS

I keep on saying that everywhere now, they didn't bother to show us first RACES available in Core game, and we know absolutely nothing about the game, not much gameplay... because two videos of Quest Battles is not enough. We're only 6 months away, and that's also very close. I would like to know The Empire, and everything, Dwarfs and Greenskins... most of all VAmpire Counts, almost every video, facebook post is spammed "Show us VAmpire Counts" and CA is like here you go! Ohhh wait it's DLC right here.

Well I paid for game so I'd like to know more about it first.

[Fredrin]

Aanker - thanks for getting a discussion like this started with a well thought out and insightful OP. You raise lots of good points.

CA has a community relationship problem. I sadly do not have any specific statistics to show this

I have some graphs from the recent Attila survey that might be helpful in this regard:

Fig. 1



Fig. 2



The graphs show responses from approx 2,500 community members who were drawn primarily from the TW SubReddit but with many coming from TWC, Steam and the Official forums too.

I think what's interesting in Fig 1 is that people were by and large quite happy (but by no means ecstatic) about efforts made by the devs to listen to community input and implement those changes into the latest game.

This stands at odds with a fervent dislike for CA and SEGA's overall business practice, serving to underscore the general point that peoples' main gripe is with business practice, although there is some reservation in endorsing the job the devs themselves are doing in the design of the actual game.

Fig 2 reinforces the point that despite many community members being extremely trusting, loyal and optimistic about CA's future success, there is widespread disillusionment with SEGA and strong disapproval of pretty much every aspect of their DLC releases. There's nothing inherently all that surprising here, but it's interesting to see laid out just how strongly people feel on the matter. The same people who are clearly not lunatic ragers as they collectively scored Attila a 7.6 overall.

This is why the Chaos DLC announcement is quite bemusing. I find it hard to believe that someone in the relevant position at SEGA has not heard of the special distaste the community reserves for the DLC policy up to date and yet they go right ahead and do about the most inflammatory thing imaginable to worsen the situation.

I can only imagine that some cold calculations are being done in their accounting division that result in sales revenue gained from preorder > sales revenue lost from community uproar. However, I doubt how many of us here can truthfully shed light on the many factors that lead up to a decision like that being made in the face of huge public criticism. Perhaps the revenue brought in from preorders is absolutely essential to keeping certain staff on to work on this game and future ones. Maybe (and I hope it's this) huge amounts of up-front cash are needed to finance a new engine for the next historical game. Probably SEGA are under huge financial strain and are insisting every possible dollar is extracted from this game with the typically corporate, short termist trait of showing no regard for the medium to long term damage they're doing to their potential profits.

Red Dox has offered some excellent solutions to the many problems the Chaos DLC has thrown up but the probability of SEGA reversing this decision is minimal unless the campaign to do so becomes highly visible in the press.

As a more general approach (as opposed to a straight up solution) I would recommend better communication and more transparency from CA about why exactly preorders are essential to their operations, if indeed that is the justification and not "more profit for SEGA". CA could reinforce the idea that preorders are to some extent an investment in the company that ensures it can continue to employ the right staff and buy the right tools to allow the franchise to grow and innovate. But if they're going to use that line, we need to be shown evidence of it being true!

If we don't get an outright U-turn on the issue (seems unlikely, to be honest), then we should at the least be offered some form of explanation from SEGA about their thought process in making this move. Perhaps follow it up with CA giving us some behind-the-scenes insight about how these kind of incentives assist development and allow them to continue producing the games we (mostly) enjoy.

Even though I'm not that strongly against the idea of Preorder DLC in principle, the current situation is stupid and insulting. The same wildly unpopular policy is pursued relentlessly, without even the slightest effort being made to mollify a large section of the fanbase who feel insulted by it. Whatever your standpoint, you have to be pretty obtuse not understand any of their grievances and yet all they get is a wall of silence that seems at best uncaring and at worst mocking.

Just a bit of communication would not go amiss. Get the hell out of that ivory tower and explain how your business model can actually benefit the franchise and, in turn, your customers!

[craziii]

I think people here waaaaaaay over estimate the impact of this small, tiny community. the biggest modding community I know of is for bethesda games and they have zero impact as bethesda gets away with everything under the sun. and I do mean every up thing under the sun.