New rank names: give your suggestions!

[Simetrical]

I posted this in the Curia as required by the bill. Of course you're not Patricians and so can't access it directly, but I think some of you will be interested in commenting, and you can be sure the Pro-Curator will give your suggestions weight based on their merits and not your rank.

According to the Medieval Naming Amendment and subsequent polls, we are to rename anything given a proper name in the Syntagma or laws to "Medieval Latin, reflecting generic medieval feudal ranks". Names we need to change (leaving aside obsolete ones):

• Strategos
• Tribounos
• Curia
• Prothalamos
• Curia Vote
• Syntagma
• Curator
• Pro-Curator
• Peregrinus
• Civitates
• Artifex
• Patricians
• Senatorii
• Opifex
• Divus
• Ostrakon
• Consilium de Civitate
• Symposium
• Consilium Belli
• Consilium Pacis

And possibly some that I missed. Of course, many are Latin already and may not need to be renamed (Symposium?), but most don't fit medieval feudal ranks.

[Atterdag]

Medieval Latin?

What's the difference between Medieval and anicent Roman Latin?

[Spiff]

As far as i know its the same as classical Latin but with a lot of words taken from other languages also - e.g. Germanic and Greek. Whether someone from the Roman republic could understand a Medieval Latin speaker i don't really know... but what i do know is that Medieval Latin was used a lot by the Church and for various other 'official' purposes.

In anycase - all suggestions are welcome, i figure some people must have some ideas otherwise they wouldn't have voted for it.

[Professor420]

Roman Latin (and the Grecian translations/words we use) names often have to do with Roman-particular instances and ranks. For example, Civitate, Patrician, Curia, Tabilarium, Opifex, Artifex, etc. Greek words, such as Strategos, Prothalomos, (Tribounos?), are more often actual translations of words, rather than the name of ranks. Primus Pila may have still meant 'First Spear' in the Middle Ages, but it meant something far more particular in Roman times.

I only realized all of this after starting to write up my list of name suggestions in the Curia, read it and perhaps it'll give you a better idea.

[Atterdag]

I think the ranks you posted in the CVRIA are really nice, prof.

[Simetrical]

I've moved this from the Symposium to Vestigia Vetustatis, so hopefully we can get some more input. Here's Professor420's post:

Strategos
-dux ducis: leader/guide/commander/general/duke

Tribounos
-denuntiator: police officer
-armatus: armed man
-equitis: member of the equistrian order/Knight
-magnas/magnatus: great man/important person
-feodalis/ambactus: vassal

The curial/syntagma ones are difficult, because the current words aren't based as much on words as institutions. And as such I'll leave it to individuals who may know some Latin or at least some basic grammar on how to create a noun from a verb (like Parliament).
Curia
Prothalamos
Curia Vote
Syntagma
Curator
Pro-Curator

Peregrinus
-bernus, inquilinus: serf, inhabitant

Civitates
-civis, burgensis: citizen, burgess, burger

Artifex
-cerdo/faber/fabri: artisan/craftsman/workman
-or we can keep the same

Patricians
-optimas: aristocrat/patrician
-senatoris: senator
-dominus: lord, owner
-equitis: member of the equistrian order/Knight
-magnas/magnatus: great man/important person
-feodalis/ambactus: vassal

Senatorii
-emeritus: retired or discharged soldier

Opifex
-architectus: master builder, inventor, designer
-aedificator: builder, maker, creator

Divus
-genitor: father, creator, originator

Ostrakon
-expulsus, pulsus, exemi, abolevi: disown/reject, drive away, banish/get rid of, banish/dispel

Consilium de Civitate
-Consilium (I say we keep this word) de [whatever we choose for Civitates]

Symposium
-colloquium: talk, conversation

Consilium Belli
-[no change]

Consilium Pacis
-[no change]

A link that may help:
http://users.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm

[Wulf]

equitis -> miles, perhaps?

Other than that shred, my knowledge of Latin doesn't extend beyond the classical world.

EDIT: perhaps, turn "Divus" into "Sanctus" in accordance with the new Medieval and [Latin] Christian theme?

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

* Strategos
* Tribounos
* Curia
* Prothalamos
* Curia Vote
* Syntagma
* Curator
* Pro-Curator
* Peregrinus
* Civitates
* Artifex
* Patricians
* Senatorii
* Opifex
* Divus
* Ostrakon
* Consilium de Civitate
* Symposium
* Consilium Belli
* Consilium Pacis

Mate - it would be helpful to me if I had (i) a translation of what these mean in English and (ii) a summary of what each title's position does. Sorry about the latter request, but I'm not as familiar with the duties of TWC as some.

Given that information, we should be able to help to come up with some appropriate generic medieval titles.

One more question - are ecclesiastical/church titles appropriate?

[Simetrical]

Mate - it would be helpful to me if I had (i) a translation of what these mean in English and (ii) a summary of what each title's position does. Sorry about the latter request, but I'm not as familiar with the duties of TWC as some.

No problem.

• Strategos: Greek for "general", part of our half-arsed attempt at a Byzantine theme. Site admins, in charge of everything. All Strategoi are Civitates or Artifices.
• Tribounos: Greek for "magistrate" or "officer" or something, I forget. Site moderators, with the ability to give out warns, etc. All Tribounoi are Civitates or Artifices.
• Curia: A reference to the Roman Curia Hostilia, frequent meeting place of the Senate. Sort of an advisory body with occasional pretensions to authority, but I'm sure you know that much.
• Prothalamos: Subforum in the Curia where bills are proposed. No idea what it means, but I assume it's intended to be some kind of reference to some Athenian process (incongruous though that may be).
• Curia Vote: Subforum in the Curia where votes are conducted.
• Syntagma: The Curial constitution, specifying most of this stuff. Distinct from the laws, much like the Constitution/laws distinction in the U.S. Evidently this means "constitution" in Greek.
• Curator: Manager of the Curia, chosen from the Strategoi. Moves stuff to vote and so on. Dunno what it means exactly.
• Pro-Curator: Deputy manager of the Curia, in the event the Curator isn't able or willing to do something.
• Peregrinus: Ordinary member. Means "non-citizen" in ancient Latin.
• Civitates: Honorary rank for non-Total War activities. Was intended to be cives, "citizens", but got screwed up and means "states".
• Artifex: Equivalent of Civitates, but for Total War contributions. Means "craftsman" or something, because the rank was originally intended specifically for modders.
• Patricians: Patricians get to vote in the Curia. All Patricians are also Civitates/Artifices. Patricians in Rome were slightly higher-class than plebeians, who were also citizens. The disparity should be greater than the current names reflect: Patricians are currently a good deal higher in the Curial power-structure (such as it is) than Civitates.
• Senatorii: An honorary rank for ex-staff, independent of all aforesaid ranks (although all Senatorii are Civitates/Artifices and nearly all are Patricians). Another botched translation (meaning "senatorial", should be senatores); originally supposed to be "Senatorii Vechii", which was supposed to mean "senior/old senators", as opposed to the "junior" Civitates, but the rank name is totally irrelevant to their actual role.
• Opifex: An honorary rank for especially great contributions to TWC outside of a staff position. Opifices are all Civitates/Artifices as well. Means basically the same thing as "Artifex", but is given a different meaning here, which it shouldn't be. Also was originally for modders only, thence the name.
• Divus: An honorary rank for the very "greatest" of the ex-admins. All Divi are automatically Senatorii, Patricians and Civitates/Artifices. Those who meet the criteria can be appointed Divus by a three-fourths Curia vote. Means, of course, "god", following the Roman tradition of deification of deceased emperors.
• Ostrakon: Removal of rank from a Civitates, Artifex, Patrician, Opifex, or Divus by the Consilium de Civitate for misbehavior. Was intended to be ostrakismos, "ostracism", the Athenian practice of exiling citizens by popular vote, but actually means "potsherd".
• Consilium de Civitate: A body of Patricians that judges applications for Civitates and Artifex and decides on disciplinary action for their misbehavior. Means "council/committee of the citizenship".
• Symposium: A place where Civitates, Artifices, and above can discuss whatever they want. Apparently referred to Greek parties of some sort.
• Consilium Belli: A place where Curia-appointed councilors discuss improvements to the Total War side of the site. "Council of War".
• Consilium Pacis: A place where Curia-appointed councilors discuss improvements to the non-Total War side of the site. "Council of Peace".

One more question - are ecclesiastical/church titles appropriate?

I would keep the number of explicitly religious ranks low if possible. We have plenty of deeply religious but non-Christian members who might not be happy with being declared a priest or whatever.

[Besim]

I am going to offer my comment here, and simply say not to bother with any special names.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

I am going to offer my comment here, and simply say not to bother with any special names.

Sorry, but -eh?

What does that mean?

The titles that Sim posted were fine for a Roman-themed board. If the idea is to change to a medieval themed board with generic medieval Latin names, we'll need quite a few "special names".

So what do you mean, exactly? Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

Why shouldn't there be a difference in titles when we're looking (logically) to medieval Latin names for these positions? Clearly medieval Latin terms differed from earlier names for similar positions of hundreds of years before.

So why, exactly, should we not bother with "any special names"?

[lawngnome]

I am going to offer my comment here, and simply say not to bother with any special names.

Thank you. We appreciate your helpful input. Always.

I mean, why would TWC want to be unique in any way?

The nerve we have.

[Sturmbringe]

Tribounos: Greek for "magistrate" or "officer" or something, I forget. Site moderators, with the ability to give out warns, etc. All Tribounoi are Civitates or Artifices.

That is not Greek at all. It is a latin loanword to the Greek language. Latin "Tribunus", after Tribus, tribe. Not in use today, not even sure it was in use post 1204. "Centurion" was in use though til 1453 in some cases.

In some really old books (in Greek) I have read dealing with the "Byzantine" Empire, sometimes they would call that a Ship Captain, sometimes they would call that a Drungarius of the Army or a Comes tes Cohortes of the Army. To my understanding, it was a term interchangeable with the proper military rank of an Officialios of the rank of Comes or Drungarius.

"Officer" in "Byzantine" Greek would be Officialios (plural Officialioi) instead of the proper Greek "Axiomaticos-Axiomatikoi". (Latin loanword in use in Byzantine Greek-No longer in use).

"Magistrate" in "Byzantine" Greek would be "Archon" or "Cephali". The Chronicle of Moraea written by De Villehardouin in a sorry excuse of Greek (the Frank tried but never quite mastered it) calls the "Byzantine Lords":

Graeci Magnates (sic)

Strategos: Greek for "general", part of our half-arsed attempt at a Byzantine theme. Site admins, in charge of everything. All Strategoi are Civitates or Artifices.

That would have been "Domesticus of the Sholae of the East or West". A Strategos was actually one rank below the Domesticus in the "Byzantine" military. Domesticus was like a Marshal. (Domesticus is a Latin loanword-no longer in use).

Prothalamos: Subforum in the Curia where bills are proposed. No idea what it means, but I assume it's intended to be some kind of reference to some Athenian process (incongruous though that may be).

Well this is quite easy. This is an archaic Classic Attic word, that means simply "Antechamber". Still in use today.

Artifex: Equivalent of Civitates, but for Total War contributions. Means "craftsman" or something, because the rank was originally intended specifically for modders.

The "Byzantine" Greek term was quite predictably, "Artisanos". Another latin loanword. No longer in use.

Ostrakon: Removal of rank from a Civitates, Artifex, Patrician, Opifex, or Divus by the Consilium de Civitate for misbehavior. Was intended to be ostrakismos, "ostracism", the Athenian practice of exiling citizens by popular vote, but actually means "potsherd".

It also means sea-shell. The Latin equivalent would be obviously, "Expulsus" from "Expellere".

[Ó Cathasaigh]

Just a few ideas, something more towards the Warrior Monk titles such as "Teutonic Sergeant" or "Knight Hospitaller" or "Templar Grand Master"

[Captain Blackadder]

I sugest that if you are going to do the medieval theme get rid of latin as far as am aware and i may very well be wrong latin was the language of the interlectual not the commoner so i sugest making titles in old or middle english as it suits the time peroid to my admitly limited knowledge.

[Soulghast]

The names Strategos, Prothalamos, Tribounos, Syntagma are Greek, not Latin of any kind.

[Undeadinator]

I have one word for you all, and one word only:

"Chunkamungous."

Just think about it, that's all I'm saying.

[Sturmbringe]

The names Strategos, Prothalamos, Tribounos, Syntagma are Greek, not Latin of any kind.

Please read my post above. The term "Tribounos" is not Greek at all but rather, a Latin loanword used in "Byzantine" times only.

[Marcus Septim IV]

peasant
citizen
recruit
soldier
sword-master
champion
knight erant
knight
Grand Master Knight (i think my ranks are DULL but after all milion times better then the one i have PAGE what i page what has page to do with TW series?)

[Odovacar]

First, you must decide to use byzantian terms or medieval latin terms used in european kingdoms. And then: from what age?
Secondly, some medieval ranks will not really fir for a rank order which was designed Rome in mind.

Here are my initial remarks:

Dux: for strategos it might do, in case of west european settings

Patrician: maybe Nobilis, because Patricians have no admin rights

Civitate: Miles, as knights before 1220 according to Georges Duby had lesser rank than nobles in many areas, in most cases the rank nobilis was above tha rank miles.

Senator: Baro (originating from Italy by 13th century it is the rank of high nobles)