Idea for temple consolidation

[Moonflower]

Hey so I've been toying with the idea of how to address the sort of 'singular' notion R2 has of their temple chains, where one temple upgrades to the next version of the same single-worship temple...

As some of you scholars well know, temples were numerous in ancient settlements, rarely was there just one singular temple/god worshiped in a settlement. More often, a few deities would become the prevailing holy 'representatives' of the settlement and would come to be worshiped in union/collectively. In Rome, for example, there was the "capitoline" triad where Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva were worshiped together in a single temple/area in the city. In Carthage, the triad of worship was centrally Tanit, Baal, and Eshmun.

So this got me thinking of how this consolidation of gods/temples could be represented in-game. Perhaps it could go something like this:

temple 1 --> temple 2, God --> temple 3, God +consort/related deity --> temple 4, God +consort +other --> temple 5, God +consort +other, specialized toward one or two of the three deities' bonuses. Example for carthage triad bonuses: Baal-Tanit-Eshmun = wealth + morale + replenishment (as the main bonuses).

this is just one way though, even while typing I thought of more ways to implement it, but if I can think of more ways surely others can, so I'll spare us.

& perhaps this building chain availability/upgrades could be restricted to provincial capital temples? 1 triad per provincial capital per province?

Just another idea to add to the lovely flavor of DeI

[FlashHeart07]

For the sake of historical accuracy it could be nice to add several gods to a single temple but what needs to be thought through is the bonusses. Personally Im against anything which adds bonusses to the game as this will just make the game easier for the player. Though the same bonusses will apply for the AI, the human player is able to use this for the biggest gain.
With this said, I still like the idea of several gods being workshipped. It would just need some serious balancing

[papaya beast]

I agree with this from a historical perspective for sure, but the deities would have to be lesser gods and beings (e.g. Nike with the temple of Zeus for the Greeks), which we know about for some cultures but are much more obscure, if known at all, for other factions. For instance, the temples for the Arabians and African tribes are already stretched to the max as far as historical testimony goes, so it would be really hard to come up with subsidiary deities for high-level temple complexes.

This aside, I wonder if it would be possible to add back the passive cultural bonus (+2 cultural conversion) that the Level 1 religious ground has for all further temples. Example, the Shrine of Hermes would have the trade bonuses and public order, but also that passive +2 cultural conversion.

I feel like this would be more historical, since building shrines to Greek deities would always slowly add to the Hellenic cultural dominance in an area. But in order to balance this, perhaps building foreign temples in newly conquered territory could have negative public order. Historically, converting a hostile population to a new religion is usually a slow, bloody process. So the public order penalty would spark more rebellions from the local populace, only diminishing when a certain level of cultural dominance is achieved.

[Alfonzo over Innsmouths]

Why not do as they did in Attila? Specifically, have generic shrine (Level 1) -> generic Temple (Level 2) as just religious buildings, then have differences occur at level 3 (Temple of Nike, etc.) Low level temples give nothing but slight public order bonus and a very small culture bonus, then have the higher levels give better bonuses. Or perhaps have a slot for a 'generic' temple which reduces public order maluses due to different cultures.

Then again, you do have the Nymphs temple which kind of reflects the worship of many gods.

I feel like this would be more historical, since building shrines to Greek deities would always slowly add to the Hellenic cultural dominance in an area. But in order to balance this, perhaps building foreign temples in newly conquered territory could have negative public order. Historically, converting a hostile population to a new religion is usually a slow, bloody process. So the public order penalty would spark more rebellions from the local populace, only diminishing when a certain level of cultural dominance is achieved.

That would actually be interesting. Surely there's an effect which increases public order maluses for different cultures which could be implemented on high level buildings. Or, heck, ANY cultural building. Specifically, you have a building that converts a population to your culture, but it upsets people because your converting them. Higher levels increase cultural influence, but also increase the public order penalty; thus building these buildings in regions with strong influence from other cultures wouldn't be viable. Alternatively you can just eat the minor culture penalty and build public order buildings, but then you won't be able to access the recruitment of your home troops. I reckon this would actually be a good way to reflect the whole assimilation thing.

[papaya beast]

Precisely what I was envisioning. And there's good historical basis for it as well: e.g. the Judaean rebellions literally any time anyone tried to tell them anything, but particularly when Antiochus IV (?) tried to set up the altar to Zeus in the Jerusalem temple complex. They really weren't feeling that and it triggered the Maccabeean rebellion if memory serves.

[papaya beast]

Now that the 1.1 release dust has slightly settled...

Wanted to see if this is feasible in the game engine. Is it possible to add these sorts of buffs/debuffs (cultural conversion vs. public order penalty)? Do other people agree that it would be more historical, or would it be too imbalanced?

[FlashHeart07]

Different buffs/debuffs are most def possible. its all about balance

[papaya beast]

I know; it would take a bunch of work, especially given the number of temple chains and cultures that would need to be worked out. The issue I foresee would revolve around getting the system to know to switch from negative public order to positive as soon as the cultural dominance is achieved.

I would see it as sort of a quartile system: major public order hits if under 25% cultural dominance, minor public order hits up until 50%, minor bonus up to 75%, and then a respectable bonus for major cultural dominance. I think the system could actually help the Ai, since many of them start in areas with their own culture dominant, leaving it up to the conquering player to deal with the public order hits to slow down expansionism.