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Thread: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

  1. #161
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    I'm not sure. We had just seen several good arguments why Censures and temporary suspensions are basically useless. An infraction from moderation should be enough warning to make any kind of Censure obsolete and we cannot hope to "educate" people with Censures, apart from the fact that that would require an extremely careful wording of the messages by the Curator. I doubt we can expect every Curator to play the private behaviour counsellor for all referred citizens.
    Temporary suspensions of Citizenship barely serve as a disciplinary means. They rather tend to drive people off prematurely as many will simply not rejoin the Citizen groups to save them the hassle the next time. Hence Dismiss and Removal of Citizenship are the only viable options for such a poll. Everything else would be vain cosmetics as is the case now.

    We can talk about notional clarity in the first paragraph you mentioned but I guess that is of secondary importance.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

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    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  2. #162
    StealthFox's Avatar Consensus Achieved
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    I disagree that censures and suspensions are useless. Citizenship is a high honor and should not be removed on a whim; there should be intermediary steps preceding removal. There have been instances in the past where members exhibit behavior that's unbecoming of a citizen (insulting/attacking other members needlessly, being disruptive, etc...) and a reminder about how citizens are expected to act is effective. It's awfully extreme to outright ostrakon a member if there are just a few instances that might not be appropriate, but maybe they need a reminder to straighten up. Also, remember that not all behavior that might be inappropriate is infractable. So, warnings from moderation are irrelevant. Furthermore, Citizenship should only be removed as a lost resort, after a series of warnings (censures or suspensions). Of course there are always exceptions, if a member has a meltdown and goes on a porn posting spree, the rank should be removed without warning.

    Secondly, you're taking choice away from the citizenry, why not let us decide how best to judge each case?

  3. #163
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Where are we taking choice away?

    In cases of citizen referrals and appeals the Curia votes on the matter and in case of staff referrals it has been pointed out several times that racking up eight infraction points within three months is a clear indicator that the culprit has continuously and wilfully ignoring Citizen standards.
    I furthermore doubt the Curia would ostrakon someone on a citizen referral for minor incidents.

    Citizenship wouldn't be removed on a whim. The hurdles for removal are pretty high in this proposal and I do not see how someone might do something that warrants removal of citizenship without severely breaking the ToS, so moderation's warnings are quite sufficient, in my opinion.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  4. #164
    StealthFox's Avatar Consensus Achieved
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Where are we taking choice away?
    You're limiting choice by restricting what options citizens have to vote on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    In cases of citizen referrals and appeals the Curia votes on the matter and in case of staff referrals it has been pointed out several times that racking up eight infraction points within three months is a clear indicator that the culprit has continuously and wilfully ignoring Citizen standards.
    I furthermore doubt the Curia would ostrakon someone on a citizen referral for minor incidents.
    If you'll look back at my edits to your draft you'll see my concerns are about citizen referrals. I said I'm fine with the way you have it for staff referrals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Citizenship wouldn't be removed on a whim. The hurdles for removal are pretty high in this proposal and I do not see how someone might do something that warrants removal of citizenship without severely breaking the ToS, so moderation's warnings are quite sufficient, in my opinion.
    Again, moderation warnings are irrelevant when discussing citizen referrals. Citizens can behave inappropriately and not meet expectations of the rank and not break the ToS.

  5. #165
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Hmm, I am still very doubtful of the temporary suspension. I really doubt that it would help in any way. Citizenship is an award but probably not as highly regarded or desired as we might wish to think, so taking it away is probably not that much of a deterrent to misdemeanour.

    The Curia officially issuing a Censure is something I would think might work. Would Dismiss, Censure, Removal not be enough?
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  6. #166
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Since we are going to keep citizen referrals anyway (in this proposal), I'm okay with adding some options to choose from. I don't think it matters much if there are 3 or 4.

    The text edits look good to me.

    So if the draft is changed as SF proposed, you can list me as supporter (or simply keep me there).

    Citizenised by Shankbot - Patron of b0Gia - House de Bodemloze

  7. #167

    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I'm not sure. We had just seen several good arguments why Censures and temporary suspensions are basically useless. An infraction from moderation should be enough warning to make any kind of Censure obsolete and we cannot hope to "educate" people with Censures, apart from the fact that that would require an extremely careful wording of the messages by the Curator. I doubt we can expect every Curator to play the private behaviour counsellor for all referred citizens.
    The PM does not have to be clinically written, just personal. The current draft is devoid of relevant information. When I was a curator I had a lengthy discussion with one referred citizen about the process. I do no think I acted like a counselor, but I am sure the personal interest was appreciated by the citizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Temporary suspensions of Citizenship barely serve as a disciplinary means. They rather tend to drive people off prematurely as many will simply not rejoin the Citizen groups to save them the hassle the next time. Hence Dismiss and Removal of Citizenship are the only viable options for such a poll. Everything else would be vain cosmetics as is the case now.
    This is supposition. I know of three citizens who were suspended, and two of them still identify as citizens. The third stated to me the decision to not request was based on predicted less activity to the site and had nothing to do with the fact they were suspended. It would be interesting to see the data for this. As far as I know we are are only guessing that its true.

    I am not in favor of the removal of any citizenship except through a Curia vote. I am not comfortable with the current system either.

  8. #168
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    I agree with SF's reasoning.
    About the importance of the removal of citizenship-badges, we should not underestimate our infantilism. (99% of us we love our badges)

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The PM does not have to be clinically written, just personal.
    It is not something personal, it is not something between the curator and the censured citizen. It should be something as neutral as possible in my opinion
    Last edited by mishkin; November 04, 2015 at 01:58 AM.

  9. #169
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Alright, I'll add Censure and 1 month suspension to the citizen referral vote later today. Thanks for your thoughts (and for convincing me), gentlemen.
    Last edited by Iskar; November 04, 2015 at 02:00 AM.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  10. #170
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Thank YOU!

  11. #171

    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    It is not something personal, it is not something between the curator and the censured citizen. It should be something as neutral as possible in my opinion
    Being personal and being neutral are not mutually exclusive.

    On a related note. This site is for all practical purposes "FOR ENTERTAINMENT ONLY" Our goal should be for the enjoyment for all.

  12. #172
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Draft updated with options for citizen referral votes and changes to staff referral wording. (I left "informed" instead of making it "notified" because the former conveys better that the Curator will be given a tad more information than just a nudge "Hey, that citizen has been suspended".)
    Thanks to StealthFox in particular.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  13. #173
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Support again (just in case)

  14. #174
    StealthFox's Avatar Consensus Achieved
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Support.

  15. #175

    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    I still would like to have the removal of citizenship be in the hands of the Curia regardless of how obvious it may be.

  16. #176
    StealthFox's Avatar Consensus Achieved
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    After some further thought, I would prefer that too since citizens are voted in by the Curia, it makes sense that they would be voted out by the Curia. But I'm willing to give the current proposal a shot since it does make some other good changes.

  17. #177
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    There are three main arguments that keep me from agreeing to the, admittedly strong, point that Pike makes:

    1) A vote is not necessary: The threshold of a site suspension means that someone needs to incur eight infraction points within three months. That is only possible with a bannable offense or continuously breaking the ToS despite several warnings. Both cases are well beyond what is acceptable for a citizen and show that the culprit is wilfully ignoring our standards.

    2) A vote would not be sufficient: In order to take a meaningful decision in voting the Curia would need to have access to the details of the infractions that led to the site suspension. However, that is impossible due to privacy of the moderation record. Only when a referred citizen chooses a public appeal can the information be published and a meaningful vote be held.

    3) A direct vote is not the only way of enacting the Curia's role in giving and taking citizenship: If we vote to write it into the constitution that a site suspension causes removal of citizenship then the removal is in the hands of the Curia. Whether it looks at each case separately (and somewhat uninformed, see above) or sets up a general rule and retains the appeal procedure to give justice to exceptional cases is only a question of how the Curia handles this, not whether.

    I'd say, if we have some consensus on the current version of the amendment, then let us finally vote on it.
    If the wish to introduce Curial votes for all cases of removal persists then I'll be more than happy to assist with crafting a subsequent discussion and possible amendment to deal with that question.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  18. #178
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    I would like to keep the proposal as it is now. Also It's about time to vote on it IMO.

    As for the "automatic" removal of citizenship, if it is part of the constitution, nobody needs to feel especially wronged by their former fellow citizens when it happens.

    Besides when the suspended member returns, a patron can always start a citizen application if so inclined and said member wishes to.

    This to add to what Iskar already stated.

    Citizenised by Shankbot - Patron of b0Gia - House de Bodemloze

  19. #179

    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    There are three main arguments that keep me from agreeing to the, admittedly strong, point that Pike makes:

    1) A vote is not necessary: The threshold of a site suspension means that someone needs to incur eight infraction points within three months. That is only possible with a bannable offense or continuously breaking the ToS despite several warnings. Both cases are well beyond what is acceptable for a citizen and show that the culprit is wilfully ignoring our standards.
    If the circumstances are obvious then a vote would in favor of removal would be forthcoming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    2) A vote would not be sufficient: In order to take a meaningful decision in voting the Curia would need to have access to the details of the infractions that led to the site suspension. However, that is impossible due to privacy of the moderation record. Only when a referred citizen chooses a public appeal can the information be published and a meaningful vote be held.
    Even now, you do not have access to moderation record. You only have knowledge of referral history. If person wishes to remain a citizen, then they would present a vigorous defense. Any relevant information that may mitigate will be presented. The Curia can choose to allow the system to remove citizenship or be swayed by a passionate defense of exceptional circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    3) A direct vote is not the only way of enacting the Curia's role in giving and taking citizenship: If we vote to write it into the constitution that a site suspension causes removal of citizenship then the removal is in the hands of the Curia. Whether it looks at each case separately (and somewhat uninformed, see above) or sets up a general rule and retains the appeal procedure to give justice to exceptional cases is only a question of how the Curia handles this, not whether.
    if creating a uniform system is fair and by virtue of its existence a Curia approve removal, then what is the justification for appeals. The Curia, by your argument, already decided the issue by their vote on this amendment. Moreover, that may be true now, but years from now, young citizens grappling with our decision would not think that our vote as already determine their conviction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I'd say, if we have some consensus on the current version of the amendment, then let us finally vote on it.
    If the wish to introduce Curial votes for all cases of removal persists then I'll be more than happy to assist with crafting a subsequent discussion and possible amendment to deal with that question.
    I wish I could compromise on this. It is principle. We vote them in, so we should vote them out.

  20. #180
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Triumvirate Reform

    Poll up. (It's been three days since the last change, mishkin, Veteraan and StealthFox voiced support, the latter explicitly despite Pike's concerns.)
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

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