It wasn't so, it never happened!

[Over and Out....]

Hi again all, it has been a while since I have being posting.

Within these few days that this great game has been running on our PCs, I have read many posts about annoying things, like the thing with inquisition (which I haven't noticed, yet. Maybe I'm lucky) and such. I understand the sorrow of people who are having these problems. But. One thing I don't understand is the old (and I mean OLD) arguement: "It never happened". SO??? Tell me if I'm wrong but wasn't the idea of the Total War series to make history as you wanted it to be.

And then to my point. This whole inquisition thing. Isn't it right that they could have burned many leaders?? I'm not a historian so I can't give you any examples, but I believe rulers of the medieval world weren't exactly kind men. I understand why inquisition never killed those leaders, it might not have been the wisest thing to do. But the leaders also never could have attacked the Pope directly. That I think all will agree. But in this game we can. We don't need to think what will happen if this army gets wiped out in a battle, as long as it wins. We can always rise another. So if we have nothing to restrict our need for destruction and mayhem, why should the inquisition have.

All that said. We can never have a game as good as we want. The AI can never be as good and versatile as the human mind. Of course the Ai could be made to follow history, but because we, as players, sure as hell won't how could AI when everything is connected to each other. And that wouldn't be very fun.

So as I'm serching for a cover, I say this. Life is full of ups and downs, so is the game. Just don't reload and take the experience as it comes. This is the greatest thing that has happened to the series, the fear of getting your ass handed to you.

Have a great time playing.

Over and Out

[Taelok]

Great post mate, +rep.

I think the problem is people like roleplaying their leaders, or at least training those 16 year old men into real fighters and commanders. Inquisitors stop this.

[Farnan]

Only one problem with that statement:

Over and Out is never used together. Its only out. Saying over and out is the same as saying "Okay you can talk, disscussion over" It doesn't make sense...


But besides that you are right, this game is not perfect history. That is why I get a bit upset when people complain that some units were never used only thought of or used only once. We have the option to change history so that idea is actually used or the unit type is used more than once.

[Over and Out....]

Maybe so I'm not an expert. But that Over and Out thing was the name I used few years back. And I like to sign my messages.

And thank you. Your posts have made this return very enjoyable.

-Topi-

[Atheist Peace]

Only one problem with that statement:

Over and Out is never used together. Its only out. Saying over and out is the same as saying "Okay you can talk, disscussion over" It doesn't make sense...

Ah come on Farnan, can't you try to be a little bit less predictable?

[Farnan]

Ah come on Farnan, can't you try to be a little bit less predictable?

Hey, its a Hollywoodism, which are really annoying when you know what you're talking about.

And yes Rome was besieged in history, but Scotland never controlled Lithuania in history...

[RexMortali]

Really really gr8 post. Changed my aspect of the game and i bet i'm not the only one.

Out =)

[Andronicus Comnenus]

But the leaders also never could have attacked the Pope directly. That I think all will agree.

Right? Wrong. Here is a primary account of the "Outrage of Anagni", an event which saw the goons of Phillip IV of France confront the Pope Boniface VIII in his summer residence:

"BEHOLD, REVEREND FATHER, at dawn of the vigil of the Nativity of the Blessed Mary just past, suddenly and unexpectedly there came upon Anagni a great force of armed men of the party of the King of France and of the two deposed Colonna cardinals. Arriving at the gates of Anagni and finding them open, they entered the town and at once made an assault upon the palace of the Pope. . . .

Not even the Pope was in a position to hold out longer. Sciarra and his forces broke through the doors and windows of the papal palace at a number of points, and set fire to them at others, till at last the angered soldiery forced their way to the Pope. Many of them heaped insults upon his head and threatened him violently, but to them all the Pope answered not so much as a word. And when they pressed him as to whether he would resign the Papacy, firmly did he refuse-indeed he preferred to lose his head-as he said in his vernacular: "E le col, e le cape!" which means: "Here is my neck and here my head."

Therewith he proclaimed in the presence of them all that as long as life was in him, he would not give up the Papacy. Sciarra, indeed, was quite ready to kill him, but he was held back by the others so that no bodily injury was done the Pope. Cardinal Peter of Spain was with the Pope all through the struggle, though the rest of his retinue had slipped away. Sciarra and the captain appointed guards to keep the Pope in custody after some of the papal doormen had fled and others had been slain. Thus [were] the Pope and his nephew taken in Anagni on the said vigil of the Blessed Mary at about the hour of vespers and it is believed that the Lord Pope put in a bad night.

The soldiers, on first breaking in, had pillaged the Pope, his chamber and his treasury of utensils and clothing, fixtures, gold and silver and everything found therein so that the Pope had been made as poor as job upon receiving word of his misfortune. Moreover, the Pope witnessed all and saw how the wretches divided his garments and carted away his furniture, both large items and small, deciding who would take this and who that, and yet he said no more than: "The Lord gave and the Lord taketh away, etc.""

The problem with MII is that it tows the papal line on their authority, rather than reflecting the mechanics of the Middle Ages. In reality, Bonface VIII was beaten to the point where he never recovered (and some chroniclers suggest that he may have suffered worse atrocities), Gregory VII died in exile after being forced from Rome by Emperor Henry IV; uprisings, such as the one led by Arnold of Brescia, often saw the pope violently being ejected from Rome, and the "genuine" popes also had to battle against the 23+ anti-popes who claimed the authority of the apostolic see between 1080-1449. Neither the inquisition nor the pope ever had the power that they have in MEII - and this is perfectly reflected in the amount of kings that killed by the inquisition (ie, bugger-all).

[Shaba Wangy]

Hi again all, it has been a while since I have being posting.

Within these few days that this great game has been running on our PCs, I have read many posts about annoying things, like the thing with inquisition (which I haven't noticed, yet. Maybe I'm lucky) and such. I understand the sorrow of people who are having these problems. But. One thing I don't understand is the old (and I mean OLD) arguement: "It never happened". SO??? Tell me if I'm wrong but wasn't the idea of the Total War series to make history as you wanted it to be.

And then to my point. This whole inquisition thing. Isn't it right that they could have burned many leaders?? I'm not a historian so I can't give you any examples, but I believe rulers of the medieval world weren't exactly kind men. I understand why inquisition never killed those leaders, it might not have been the wisest thing to do. But the leaders also never could have attacked the Pope directly. That I think all will agree.

Over and Out

Here yah go. Only 4 years from the starts of the game, Rome gets siege and taken.

The German supporters of the pope ignored the reconciliation, and proceeded in March, 1077, to elect a new king, Rudolf of Rheinfelden. This was the signal for the civil war during which Gregory sought to act as arbiter between the rival kings and as their overlord to award the crown. By artful diplomacy Henry held off, until 1080, any decisive action. Considering his position sufficiently secure, he then demanded that the pope should excommunicate his rival, otherwise he would set up an antipope. Gregory answered by excommunicating and deposing Henry for the second time at the Lenten Synod of 1080. It was declared at the same time that clergy and people should ignore all civil interference and all civil claims on ecclesiastical property, and should canonically elect all the candidates for ecclesiastical office. The effect of this second excommunication was inconsiderable. During the preceding years the king had collected a strong party; the bishops preferred to depend on the king rather than on the pope; moreover, it was believed that the second excommunication was not justified. Gregory's party was thus greatly weakened, At the Synod of Brixen (June, 1080) the king's bishops listened to ridiculous charges and exaggerations, and deposed the pope, excommunicated him, and elected as antipope Guibert, Archbishop of Ravenna, otherwise a learned and blameless man. Gregory had relied on the support of the Normans in Southern Italy and of the German enemies of the king, but the former sent him assistance. Thus when in October, 1080, his rival for the throne was slain in battle, Henry turned his thoughts on the papal capital. Four times, from 1081 to 1084, he assaulted Rome, in 1083 captured the Leonine City, and in 1084, after an unsuccessful attempt at a compromise, gained possession of the entire city.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08084c.htm

Shaba Wangy

[Burns]

The Inquisition could not realistically kill faction leaders or high ranking members. The Inquisition had no real power to kill. That was not its intent. The goal was to root out heresy. For somebody to be actually killed they'd have to be handed over to the secular authority (ie, a King, the Prince, the Duke, the Potesta ect...) It was the lower orders of society that were far more exposed to persecution. These included both liety and clergy. The nobility were generally far more secure against Inquisition due to status, and force of arms. And don't forget that the Inqusition needed secular support to actually function.

[RexMortali]

The Inquisition could not realistically kill faction leaders or high ranking members. The Inquisition had no real power to kill. That was not its intent. The goal was to root out heresy. For somebody to be actually killed they'd have to be handed over to the secular authority (ie, a King, the Prince, the Duke, the Potesta ect...) It was the lower orders of society that were far more exposed to persecution. These included both liety and clergy. The nobility were generally far more secure against Inquisition due to status, and force of arms. And don't forget that the Inqusition needed secular support to actually function.

What you say is true but here we again come to the point where something in history was different as it is in the game. So you can't really totaly dissagree at least i cant.

[Andronicus Comnenus]

What you say is true but here we again come to the point where something in history was different as it is in the game. So you can't really totaly dissagree at least i cant.

But surely the who point of this game is to allow the player to create (or recreate) history in an environment which is, generally, authentic. Otherwise what's the point of building authentic units at all? Why can't I build King Kong, a wizard or an F16?

[Burns]

But surely the who point of this game is to allow the player to create (or recreate) history in an environment which is, generally, authentic. Otherwise what's the point of building authentic units at all? Why can't I build King Kong, a wizard or an F16?

Becuase the concept of Agency is in effect.

[Burns]

To be more realistic however (for any mods out there) Inquisition should only be able to 'denouce' like a priest and reduce Heresy % in a province. Given that Piety rating for generals is so low. Thats another problem altogether, something that SHOULD be mitigated with Religious buildings! But it doesnt appear to be.

[Over and Out....]

... I'm not a historian ...

All I have to say.

-Topi-

[Aether]

I'm with Farnan on this one, I'm a military radio/satelite-operator and I get shivers on my spine hearing the words over and out!

[ProudNerd]

gameplay>reailsm.

[Amroth]

As many good mods for RTW have shown, realism + gameplay = good gameplay.

[Chuffy]

The Inquisition had better things to do than burn Kings.

It would make much more sense for them to act like an upgraded priest, denouncing heretics and converting/cowing the population.

Instead they just run around burning family members for having a 'low piety rating'...

That doesn't make someone a heretic. It just meant they were ignorant, the Inquisition didn't actually burn people for that because then they would had to of BURNED THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF EUROPE SINCE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WERE TRULY VERSED IN DOCTRINE WERE THE CLERGY. And even then, most of them were completely ignorant because the majority could not read latin/greek!

Heresy would be like saying "The pope is a dick" or "Jesus was not the messiah"...it was not "I only have a piety rating of 2 so an Inquisitor with 8 Piety gets a +40% chance to burn me!"

Whatever happened to the 'secret atheist' trait from MTW1. Then you could have some justification for Inquisitors.

Or hey, what about all the incest and prefers young boys traits?

[ProudNerd]

The Inquisition had better things to do than burn Kings.

It would make much more sense for them to act like an upgraded priest, denouncing heretics and converting/cowing the population.

Instead they just run around burning family members for having a 'low piety rating'...

That doesn't make someone a heretic. It just meant they were ignorant, the Inquisition didn't actually burn people for that because then they would had to of BURNED THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF EUROPE SINCE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WERE TRULY VERSED IN DOCTRINE WERE THE CLERGY. And even then, most of them were completely ignorant because the majority could not read latin/greek!

Heresy would be like saying "The pope is a dick" or "Jesus was not the messiah"...it was not "I only have a piety rating of 2 so an Inquisitor with 8 Piety gets a +40% chance to burn me!"

Whatever happened to the 'secret atheist' trait from MTW1. Then you could have some justification for Inquisitors.

Or hey, what about all the incest and prefers young boys traits?

lmao @ pope is a dick..woudl that really get you roasted lol?