why dont Jannissasy archers have free upkeep?

[Ambrosius]

yes i understand free upkeep is for militia units, and jannissary archers dont have the word militia in their title. but jannissary archers are trained from a militia building, that you have to wait for a HUGE city for and build the 6th tier militia barracks for. quite a huge investment both in terms of money and time. the least they could do is have free upkeep.

i think its pretty rediculous that you can get pavise crossbowmen from a tier 3 militia building and have free upkeep on them, but you cant get free upkeep on jannissary archers who have worse stats. they cant even fire flaming arrows FFS. not to mention they are 175 upkeep while the pavise crossbowmen all european nations spam like crazy are only 100 upkeep, and less than half the cost to recruit.

i think im going to mod this when the unpacker comes out, to allow for free upkeep in cities and flaming missiles. what a ripoff, geez.

[k_161]

They don't have a free upkeep because janissary archers are professional soldiers.and who said they can't use Fire arrows ?

http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?im...3190321ib4.png

[sera]

As k_161 said; the Jannissary were professionals. Actually reckoned as the first truly professional soldiers of the Turks/Ottomans.

[ProudNerd]

yes i understand free upkeep is for militia units, and jannissary archers dont have the word militia in their title. but jannissary archers are trained from a militia building, that you have to wait for a HUGE city for and build the 6th tier militia barracks for. quite a huge investment both in terms of money and time. the least they could do is have free upkeep.

i think its pretty rediculous that you can get pavise crossbowmen from a tier 3 militia building and have free upkeep on them, but you cant get free upkeep on jannissary archers who have worse stats. they cant even fire flaming arrows FFS. not to mention they are 175 upkeep while the pavise crossbowmen all european nations spam like crazy are only 100 upkeep, and less than half the cost to recruit.

i think im going to mod this when the unpacker comes out, to allow for free upkeep in cities and flaming missiles. what a ripoff, geez.

jannissaryes are eleite troops not just soliders so obviousy they dotn have upkeep. They are about as far from millita as you can get.

[Ambrosius]

ah, i see. and genoese crossbowmen werent elite troops?
ah, but give them one less armor and all of a sudden they get free upkeep. not that their 100 upkeep is much to begin with, lol.

they were the most famous crossbowmen of all times. if you want to get historically accurate, they should be mercs on the map that you have to hire.

[ProudNerd]

ah, i see. and genoese crossbowmen werent elite troops?
ah, but give them one less armor and all of a sudden they get free upkeep. not that their 100 upkeep is much to begin with, lol.

they were the most famous crossbowmen of all times. if you want to get historically accurate, they should be mercs on the map that you have to hire.

I dont think they were the french slaghtered them when they retreated at argincourt because they through they were cowards..

[murat can]

there is geneose xbowmen militia and genoese xbowmen.. they are 2 diffrent units

and historically janissaries were far more elite then genoese, cant believe you compare those two

[Mad_Cat]

Man don't get me started on the Janissaries.The janissaries were considerd not Just the Best Ottoman troops, but THEE BEST troops in Europe through out the 15th,16th and 17th centuries (historically Speaking). In addition to which the janissaries, had a whole variety of troops. For example their were jannissary infantry with scimitars, and a small sabre with a shield, there were Janissaries with Axes and a shield, with polearms, halberds all with shields and Heavy armour. There were the gunner divisions the 'the Silah karda' reknowned for being the very best in europe, which included the very best archers. Yet we get one janissary Unit, who doesn't have a shield and whose stats don't reflect any kind of realism.

[Hodor]

Man don't get me started on the Janissaries.The janissaries were considerd not Just the Best Ottoman troops, but THEE BEST troops in Europe through out the 15th,16th and 17th centuries (historically Speaking). In addition to which the janissaries, had a whole variety of troops. For example their were jannissary infantry with scimitars, and a small sabre with a shield, there were Janissaries with Axes and a shield, with polearms, halberds all with shields and Heavy armour. There were the gunner divisions the 'the Silah karda' reknowned for being the very best in europe, which included the very best archers. Yet we get one janissary Unit, who doesn't have a shield and whose stats don't reflect any kind of realism.

Actually, the Turks have 3 Janissary units.

Janissary Archers, J. Heavy Infantry (don't let their unimpressive stats fool you; their polearms are longer than those of other units, allowing them to easily rout Heavy Billmen within seconds) and J. Musketeers (the best gunpowder infantry in the game).

[Ambrosius]

so your point is that genoese crossbow militia have free upkeep because they are nonprofessional and different from the professional version you train from castles.
they are 2 different units? you could have fooled me.. the militia have like 1 less defense. big deal. i never build the non-militia ones in my milan campaigns. why pay upkeep for a barely noticeable stat increase? in fact, as milan, i rarely have more than 1-2 castles.

regardless of the stat nitpicking, if you want to go by history, historically the genoese were the most renowned crossbowmen of their time period.... and they were professional mercenaries. the fact that any pavise crossbowmen are 'militia' units is bloody rediculous. they were all professional soldiers, they even generally had 2 servants - one to reload their second crossbow and another to carry/hold the pavise.

im just trying to point out that just because jannissary archers were, historically, professional soldiers shouldnt mean that thhey cant have free upkeep. this is a game. they are trained in a militia building, and many other factions have much better militia units that get free upkeep.

[imb39]

Don't get hung up on what trains the troops but rather what the troops are. Jannisaries are not militia. In no way could they thought of as such.

[Mad_Cat]

Don't get hung up on what trains the troops but rather what the troops are. Jannisaries are not militia. In no way could they thought of as such.

I totally agree, I mean Janissary trained since infancy till the age of 24, (imagine the costs??) in no way could they be considered militia.

[Ambrosius]

so were going by stats then?
genoese crossbowmen have comparable stats and are available at tier 3. they have the armor piercing trait, so they are actually more effective as archers.


if you go by history:
jannissaries were famous. great. genoese crossbowmen were widely regarded as the best crossbow troops. period.

if you go by buildings:
they are both trained from militia buildings in cities. genoese crossbowmen are available at tier 3, much, much, much earlier. meaning its a guarantee that every ciity will be garrisoned by them.

if you go by stats:
stats are comparable. in fact i would go with the genoese crossbowmen, easily. they have the armor piercing stat which makes them twice as effective as a ranged unit, and have almost HALF the upkeep when not in a garrison. you could afford to keep a full stack of genoese crossbow militia in every city by late game, since 6 of them will have free upkeep and the rest will only cost you 1200 or so florins per turn.



this is a game though. how many other factions have units produced by militia buildings that dont have free upkeep?

[k_161]

You Don't get it do you ? it doesn't matter where they train what matters is that their not a militia so you have to pay.and they cost more maybe because the bow takes alot more time and training to master then an Xbow.and like Mad_Cat said there should be more Janissary units.

[Revan The Great]

I think Ambro may be on to something, though maybe attacking it the wrong way. Jannisaries obviously shouldn't have free upkeep, but neither should these supposed "Militia" Genoese crossbowmen.

Though at the same time there is another way to look at this: Balance

The Milanese roster is more or less Venetian-Papal with less of their own elite troops, excluding the Famigilia Ducale-Heavy cavalry which isn't overly spectacular. So if you think of it in terms of Milan's roster being a carbon copy of some other factions, and then downgraded some it might make sense for their great strength to be their crossbowmen with little to no upkeep.

Also remember Milan doesn't start with a castle, and instead two cities.

[Ambrosius]

I think Ambro may be on to something, though maybe attacking it the wrong way. Jannisaries obviously shouldn't have free upkeep, but neither should these supposed "Militia" Genoese crossbowmen.

Though at the same time there is another way to look at this: Balance

The Milanese roster is more or less Venetian-Papal with less of their own elite troops, excluding the Famigilia Ducale-Heavy cavalry which isn't overly spectacular. So if you think of it in terms of Milan's roster being a carbon copy of some other factions, and then downgraded some it might make sense for their great strength to be their crossbowmen with little to no upkeep.

Also remember Milan doesn't start with a castle, and instead two cities.

to be perfectly honest i think none of the pavise crossbowmen should be militia. these are not 'crossbow militia', mind you.

historically, pavise crossbowmen were trained, wealthy troops who could afford two crossbows, decent armor, a pavise and 1-2 servants. one servant would reload a crossbow and the other would carry and hold the pavise, while the crossbowman fired. hardly a 'militia' unit.

all of the euro factions should get militia crossbowmen. pavise crossbowmen should be recruitable in castles only.

right now many of the factions, particularly the italian ones, are rediculously overpowered in that they hardly ever have to build castles. whether you use them or not, know how to counter them or not, it is a fact that pavise crossbowmen are very powerful in this game (and should be). they should not be militia, however.

IMO armoured sargeants should have some sortof stat boost as well. these are professional soldiers, yet they have the same stats as militia spearmen.

[Ambrosius]

we can just agree to disagree then, since neither of us is getting through to the other.
this is a game, not history.

jannissary archers are one of the only - if not the only (i havent played every faction yet in the campaign, so im not sure) units in the game that are produced from a militia building that do not have free upkeep.
they come far too late in the tech tree, cost too much upkeep, and have mediocre stats for this to make much sense.

then they should be taken out of the militia building, we should get a crappier archer like 'muslim archer militia', and they should be added to the huge wall upgrade or something.
wasting a militia unit slot on an expensive archer that doesnt have free upkeep in a faction that is already hurting for good ranged troops is wrong.
not to mention that we are forced to build 2 expensive, long build time militia buildings to get them.

[ProudNerd]

we can just agree to disagree then, since neither of us is getting through to the other.
this is a game, not history.

jannissary archers are one of the only - if not the only (i havent played every faction yet in the campaign, so im not sure) units in the game that are produced from a militia building that do not have free upkeep.
they come far too late in the tech tree, cost too much upkeep, and have mediocre stats for this to make much sense.

then they should be taken out of the militia building, we should get a crappier archer like 'muslim archer militia', and they should be added to the huge wall upgrade or something.
wasting a militia unit slot on an expensive archer that doesnt have free upkeep in a faction that is already hurting for good ranged troops is wrong.
not to mention that we are forced to build 2 expensive, long build time militia buildings to get them.

Dude they ARENT millita. Its not that hard to understand. im not agreeing to disagree wiht you im telling you your wrong. They probbly just get the bows from the millta building like other archers. The "higher in the tech tree" bit shoudld clue you in this isnt really the building that builds them

[Ambrosius]

Dude they ARENT millita. Its not that hard to understand. im not agreeing to disagree wiht you im telling you your wrong. They probbly just get the bows from the millta building like other archers. The "higher in the tech tree" bit shoudld clue you in this isnt really the building that builds them

ah, i see.
isnt that a little complicated reasoning to justify your argument?
so basically, i am wrong because the militia building that allows you to train jannissary archers actually doesnt train them. they train elsewhere, and just go there to get their bows.
erm.. and what other archers? they are the only ranged militia the turks have.

i dont really care about the jannissary archers. what bothers me is that the turks have only one ranged unit that can be trained in a city from a militia building. it is a high-tier unit, costs twice as much to recruit and upkeep as a pavise crossbowman, and doesnt get free upkeep.
this is messed up, and why i said i would settle for some cheap peasant or muslim archers, and put the jannissary archers on the huge wall upgrade instead.

i am still waiting for you to give examples of other factions which have units produced at their militia buildings that dont get free upkeep. much less the ONLY thing new in the final 3 militia buildings.

[ProudNerd]

ah, i see.
isnt that a little complicated reasoning to justify your argument?
so basically, i am wrong because the militia building that allows you to train jannissary archers actually doesnt train them. they train elsewhere, and just go there to get their bows.
erm.. and what other archers? they are the only ranged militia the turks have.

i dont really care about the jannissary archers. what bothers me is that the turks have only one ranged unit that can be trained in a city from a militia building. it is a high-tier unit, costs twice as much to recruit and upkeep as a pavise crossbowman, and doesnt get free upkeep.
this is messed up, and why i said i would settle for some cheap peasant or muslim archers, and put the jannissary archers on the huge wall upgrade instead.

i am still waiting for you to give examples of other factions which have units produced at their militia buildings that dont get free upkeep. much less the ONLY thing new in the final 3 militia buildings.

Well the fact is that ive only played it for two days before my pc fried for reasons unknown so I'm waiting on another vid card for my new system before I play again. I didnt know they were the only millita they had since i hadnt played the turks I was justs basing it off english experance so I'm going to just shut up now and learn something