CA non-commercial? - release of 'Empires of Sand': diversity and historical accuracy for Attila TW

[JERUSALEM]

This is not the praise thread for CA or for the 'Empires of Sand' culture pack, this is more how I see the development of Attila TW from the beginning of 2015 up to fall of the same year.

The game was released in 17th of February, 2015 with about 10 factions - Huns, WRE, ERE, Sassanids, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Franks, Saxons, Vandals and Alans as the playable factions.
Since or simultaneously with those factions, at least before 15th of September CA has released some DLC's, campaign pack and FLC, which all were very similar to the first 10 playable factions. 'Viking Forefathers' were close to Saxons and not very historically accurate for Attila's age (4th-5th cc.); 'Longbeards' were very similar to the same Saxons and Franks; 'Suebians' is much the same as Vandals and Gothic factions; and Celtic factions (maybe except for the Picts) never been of any importance for the age of Attila. Also, the same I should say about 'the Last Roman' campaign pack (through I have to admit that the Belisarius's Roman Expedition was very originally crafted) had the factions of the similar type, or the all the way the same, as WRE, ERE, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Franks and Vandals. But since the release of the 'Empires of Sand' culture pack that includes Axum, Himyar, Lakhmids and Tanukhids the game itself looks more fresh, more diverse and more accurate from the historical point of view. And I see only positive reviews for this new DLC.

CA did not release the long waited 'Slavic' Culture Pack, but they choose to release more accurate from historical point of view (for the 4th and 5th cc.) and more diverse 'Empires of Sand' culture pack, which includes almost all unique factions for the Age of Attila.

1. Axum - as the first black African faction of Total War series. Also accurate from the historical point of view (From the first century they were quite strong kingdom in Africa, the same in 4th and 5th cc.).

2. Tanukhids - as the first horde faction in the south alongside with hordes of the Eurasian steppes in the North (also very accurate for the 4th and 5th cc.).

3. Himyar - as the first Arabic sedentary faction of the Arabian peninsula, independent and mighty from the period of Saba Kingdom, and still independent in 4th and 5th cc.

4. Lakhmids - as the first Sassanid vassal playable faction of Attila TW situated between the ERE and Sassanid Empires and Arabic factions (Quite strong and important from 4th to 7th cc.).


So, as you see all these new factions from 'Empires of Sand' culture pack are really well diverse, I have no idea how many revenue CA has with the release of this culture pack, but i am quite confident that they won't get as much as for the release of Slavic culture pack, which was somehow intended to release even in the Spring of 2015 as many scripts contained specific files for the Slavic culture pack. But still CA decided to release something new, more diverse, and more accurate (As Slavs did not play any significant role in 4th and 5th cc. They have appeared only in 6th c.). I even do not see here the attempt to fill the gap in the East, as all these new factions (Axum, Himyar, Lakhmids and Tanukhids) are more southern factions (Arabian, African, which are truly southern) rather than eastern. True East is represented by Sassanids only in Attila TW.

Accordingly, should we wait from them the release of the new DLC, FLC or Campaign Packs with 'non-commercial' purposes (release of 'Sand Empires' for Attila TW, and Emperor Edition in Rome 2 TW), full with new, diverse and historically accurate cultures, or they will try to do more commercial stuff like this Warhammer TW project?





What is your expectation?

[Abdülmecid I]

Every company, including CA, is targeting for profit, directly or indirectly. So, either they plan to release the Slavs as the last DLC or they have a different opinion than you and consider the Empires of the Sand as more popular than the slavic tribes. TBH, that's what I also believe: The Slavs would be a guaranteeed financial success in the Eastern European market, which is quite huge, but two Arabic and one african faction have been added to the game, with the last DLC, and the arabian/african/black market is probably much larger than the eastern european one. Also, the exotic characteristics of the added factions will attract more neutral customers, who would otherwise had stayed indifferent with the release of another nomadic faction.

[JERUSALEM]

Every company, including CA, is targeting for profit, directly or indirectly. So, either they plan to release the Slavs as the last DLC or they have a different opinion than you and consider the Empires of the Sand as more popular than the slavic tribes. TBH, that's what I also believe: The Slavs would be a guaranteeed financial success in the Eastern European market, which is quite huge, but two Arabic and one african faction have been added to the game, with the last DLC, and the arabian/african/black market is probably much larger than the eastern european one. Also, the exotic characteristics of the added factions will attract more neutral customers, who would otherwise had stayed indifferent with the release of another nomadic faction.

So, what was the purpose of adding the 'Longbeards' then? they already had tons of Germanics before its release, from the start of the game, but they did it because these factions really matter for this time-frame. besides, I do not think that the Arabian and the African market really matters for them as they sell their productions in the Western countries mostly, including Japan and, probably, China (more then 90 or 95 % I guess). I am pretty sure that they do not have much profit from Africa or Arabia, even from Russia and Ukraine due to crisis which they have. But, still, Eastern European market matters, but, I hope that the release of 'Empires of Sand' culture pack is the huge step forward, just for the sake of gameplay, strategy, historical accuracy and diversity.

Still agree with your point that they are targeting the market, that's obvious, but here are the fans who understand the real value of the game and I am quite sure that they do not allow them only to do commercial things. And i see the praise for the latest culture pack, mostly, from Western guys who love the game and not only the particular factions in it.

[Regvlvs]

Maybe I am wrong but I don't see what could be very interesting out of a Slav dlc for the grand campaign's timeframe. A spear levy, an ax levy, "spear masters"... What could set them apart? Maybe give them guerrilla deployment and of course they will get snow immunity but what else? Some kind of cart unit? Maybe winged hussars?

[Darios]

Maybe I am wrong but I don't see what could be very interesting out of a Slav dlc for the grand campaign's timeframe. A spear levy, an ax levy, "spear masters"... What could set them apart? Maybe give them guerrilla deployment and of course they will get snow immunity but what else? Some kind of cart unit? Maybe winged hussars?

Well it's a bit complicated. By this period the Germans had evolved into more or less the equals of the Romans in battle and possessed iron weapons (including swords) while the Slavs were still largely ambushers fighting with bows, javelins, axes, and spears. Asides from that, the appeal largely comes from cultural diversity and depicting Eastern Europe as something other than Germanic or Hunnic clones. They had a unique religion, language, material culture, art, clothing, and weapons to the point where well developed Slavs would enrich the campaign map in terms of diversity (think about how cool Ethiopia/Arabia is now because of the Empires of Sand DLC or how interesting the British Isles are because of the Celtic DLC).

Gameplay wise, the Slavs should have the role of slowly expanding into the lands razed by the Huns. They should get food/agricultural bonuses that will allow them to be immune to the effects of climate change, therefore allowing them to comfortably resettle Eastern Europe and the Steppes. As a result, once the Huns are defeated, the now-powerful Slavic tribes should prove to be a fun late game challenge for a Germanic faction (or vice versa!)

As the game currently stands, the steppes are catastrophic mess. While I know that CA will never remove the plethora of ridiculous and time-warped factions (Bastarnae, Roxolanians, Boudini, Magyars, etc) there, fleshing out the Antes, Sclavenians, and Wends would go a long way to giving the region an iota of historical accuracy and diversity. Anyone who loves this game should not enjoy the fact that the steppes are currently occupied by copy/paste Germans. Remember the outrage from Nordic Celts? This is the exact same thing.

[Sharpe]

Sometimes, profit and integrity/diversity/historical accuracy go hand in hand.

[DisgruntledGoat]

I think both of you are making way to much out of ethnicity as a draw for the majority of consumers as well as regional sales factoring into decisions. I also question why you believe that the slavic culture pack, is long awaited. At the end of the day what draws people to purchase new content is how different it is to the current content and does it bring a different play opportunity. Just because a group of ethnic focused individuals on this forum want a slavic pack does not make it a primary draw. The Longbeards provided new content that had some interesting flare, especially in context of the Langobard's with their "cool" armor, beards and "berserker" style units. The empires of sand provide yet another new play opportunity compared to the base game. Offering new visuals and play styles.

Any new DLC, especially this late in the cycle, will be about providing a new experience to the player to entice them to spend money. Ethnicity and regional sales will not factor into the decision at all. All that matters is if a focus group of 18-34 year olds from western europe and north america think its "cool."

[Abdülmecid I]

Any new DLC, especially this late in the cycle, will be about providing a new experience to the player to entice them to spend money. Ethnicity and regional sales will not factor into the decision at all. All that matters is if a focus group of 18-34 year olds from western europe and north america think its "cool."

Indeed, that is the most important factor that determines the nature of a new DLC, which is why I believe that Himyar, with Haile Selassie as her ruler and 300 Immortals as her infantry was preferred over the Slavs, but the DLCs are so over-priced (compared to the rest of the game) that their financial success is almost guaranteed, so there's no reason for CA to limit its targets. Vikings and the Greek cities were chosen as pre-order DLCs, because they basically are the flagships of coolness, not to attract the Scandinavian or Greek nationalists respectively. After them, the relationship between coolness/nationalism gradually change in favour of the latter (without that meaning that the patriotic buyers are more than the simply excited over new cotnent ones). Anyway, I was basically referring to why CA chose the Sandmen and not the Slavs,. Actually, I believe that the last DLC will be another "cool" mini-campaign, concerning either Arthur or Charlemagne, definitely not Heraclius or the White Huns.

[AnthoniusII]

CA/SEGA tries hard to buy time against TW community untill Warhammer will be realeased!
Such DLCs offer actually NOTHING new exept of new textures/models. They DO NOT complete or FIX that damn game!
They low tricks to mock TW hordcore customers once more!
And ofcourse to give Germanic common heritage of central/west europe more prestige trying to keep a wide european customers pool and forgeting the others!

[Darios]

And ofcourse to give Germanic common heritage of central/west europe more prestige trying to keep a wide european customers pool and forgeting the others!

This game should be renamed - Nemeski Total War

[AnthoniusII]

This game should be renamed - Nemeski Total War

Choosing a theme for a Game/DLC or a mod is guite hard desision.
When I posted Golden Ages mod many years ago many people were happy because the extended map had all these tribes and nations Charlemagne has now plus all major balkan and middle east ones.
When we realised that such a project would be HUGE for our abillities we came with the "smallest" TGC.
Many people called us nuts in the begining because a mod without "knights" seamed doomed.
Maybe they were right...
But here are TGC and Charlemagne's DLC's diferences.
TGC tries HARD to show ultimate respect in all cultures they are envolved in the mod's story.
We went a bit further. We asked our researchers to create each faction's main consept with the point of view of the people are today closest to those ones!
The player when choosing a factions "sees" the mod's world through the "eyes" of the factions he/she chooses!

CA/SEGA PROVED many times that had the abillities and the proper creators to make exelent games. But I am afraid that they are not have the will to do such a thing.
That lack of will will lead TW games to their ends and they know it and Warhammer is the proof!
Fantasy will take delimas of CA/SEGA developers out of their lives and "fool" their customers that the company "cares" for them!
I like fantasy based games. But respect to human cultures is something CA/SEGA must try hard to regain.

[Darios]

But here are TGC and Charlemagne's DLC's diferences.
TGC tries HARD to show ultimate respect in all cultures they are envolved in the mod's story.
We went a bit further. We asked our researchers to create each faction's main consept with the point of view of the people are today closest to those ones!
The player when choosing a factions "sees" the mod's world through the "eyes" of the factions he/she chooses!

I have a lot of respect for TGC and I am certain that your portrayal of the Franks/Lombards/Normans/and HRE is light years better than the "Elite Germanic Archers" that will litter CA's Charlemagne DLC. I am especially fond of your Kievan Rus, Roman, and Pecheneg previews and I look forward to the day where you will release your mod and I will be the first to play it.

[RGA]

Historical accuracy does not equal immersive gameplay, at least from my point of view. You can create tons of exotic units with God-knows-what names, but somehow the game is still boring. A good campaign must have a great deal of decision making, which really puts you in charge of the commanders who face difficult choices.

Take DeI as example. While it's true that their unit pool is as gigantic as it could possibly be, the features I like most are something else: the immersive traits, skills and household of general. It makes role-playing much more easier. Or the new patrol stance who puts your army on patrol to gain PO at cost of being ambushed. Or the modification which makes putting troops inside city decrease, not increase PO.

CA surely knowns about this. Each of the new CA's DLCs also have their own dilemma system which I find extremely interesting. EoS for example: you are dining with the Sassanid King of kings and suddenly he started making a mockery of your people. Would you try to be diplomatic, at risk of alienating your own folks, or protest the powerful king? And your choice really has consequences, consequences you cannot foretold (at least on the first try). See? That's what makes the campaign interesting and colourful, not added units. I don't care about added units, they might be useful in multiplayer battles but I never see the need of adding new units in single player.

[alex33]

I think this is more fantasy than historical accurate. Perhaps from a faction standpoint but not bc of the units. *coug*african wild dogs*cough*

[AnthoniusII]

I have a lot of respect for TGC and I am certain that your portrayal of the Franks/Lombards/Normans/and HRE is light years better than the "Elite Germanic Archers" that will litter CA's Charlemagne DLC. I am especially fond of your Kievan Rus, Roman, and Pecheneg previews and I look forward to the day where you will release your mod and I will be the first to play it.

Thank you for you kind words. I hope one day CA/SEGA will release all those modding/scripting tools to portay TGC in the Attila engine too!

Historical accuracy does not equal immersive gameplay, at least from my point of view. You can create tons of exotic units with God-knows-what names, but somehow the game is still boring. A good campaign must have a great deal of decision making, which really puts you in charge of the commanders who face difficult choices.

Take DeI as example. While it's true that their unit pool is as gigantic as it could possibly be, the features I like most are something else: the immersive traits, skills and household of general. It makes role-playing much more easier. Or the new patrol stance who puts your army on patrol to gain PO at cost of being ambushed. Or the modification which makes putting troops inside city decrease, not increase PO.

CA surely knowns about this. Each of the new CA's DLCs also have their own dilemma system which I find extremely interesting. EoS for example: you are dining with the Sassanid King of kings and suddenly he started making a mockery of your people. Would you try to be diplomatic, at risk of alienating your own folks, or protest the powerful king? And your choice really has consequences, consequences you cannot foretold (at least on the first try). See? That's what makes the campaign interesting and colourful, not added units. I don't care about added units, they might be useful in multiplayer battles but I never see the need of adding new units in single player.

That is very true. We must be always CAREFULL when we use the term "historical" in gamming and modding. Creating tones of exotic units must never be the ultimate goal of a game.
If we could use TGC unit rosters for example , factions have an average of 12-15 units maximmum.
Game Engine limmitations though some times force developers to create "clone" units as well. For example in TGC East Frankia unit rosters there is a heavy swordmen unit that is actually the cavalry one on foot because M2TW engine does not suport dismount animation and option.
But...there are exeptions:
Soon in our Islamic previews our fans will expirience a diferent kind of unit rosters.
Why? Because unit recruitment pools reflected the societies they belong into.
So..Each Islamic roster will have :
Its "royal" part, its common Arabic population part , its unique dyansty or region one and some of them the units that will come from slaves and AOR based units.
A developing team must create something that will lead the player in to the atmosphear of the era the game refers to.

I think this is more fantasy than historical accurate. Perhaps from a faction standpoint but not bc of the units. *coug*african wild dogs*cough*

Yes because they do not have the "education" and/or the free time to come with something more accurate.
Also unit rosters aim spesificaly to groups of customers!
Just watch Attila Germanic rosters that are full of heavy "knight" style cavalry and 16th century style pikemen!
That kind of additions made on purpose to aid players that will play those factions to "establish" their own Germanic origin Empires and feel proud of it.

[douglas]

Historical accuracy does not equal immersive gameplay, at least from my point of view. You can create tons of exotic units with God-knows-what names, but somehow the game is still boring. A good campaign must have a great deal of decision making, which really puts you in charge of the commanders who face difficult choices.

Completely agree.

[Regvlvs]

Personally I am pretty annoyed they didn't make the Ghassanids a playable faction as I find them as simply the most fascinating to the time period. Although maybe if I convert Himyarites it will feel similar.

Still very surprised Armenia isn't playable yet.

[Darios]

Still very surprised Armenia isn't playable yet.

CA does seem to have a thing for leaving Armenia out don't they?(

[Charerg]

CA does seem to have a thing for leaving Armenia out don't they?(

Well, the good news is that they are playable using this mod:

Armenia: Between Two Worlds

And you won't even have to pay a penny to unlock them!

[Darios]

Well, the good news is that they are playable using this mod:

Armenia: Between Two Worlds

And you won't even have to pay a penny to unlock them!

Wow what a beautiful mod! Some pretty good work went into it I see. The thing for me is that I do not play mods at all (for Rome 2/Attila) because I feel that hyping modding (while not really supporting it) gives CA an excuse to release sub-par games with sub-par content. The Total War 3 "Warscape" engine isn't really designed for modding as it has a way of 'breaking' the game (especially after an update.) The last truly moddable game was M2.

My point here is that it's quite sad that CA took the time to release relatively insignificant entities like the Suebi or Geats but ignored the first officially Christian kingdom in the world; one that the Romans and Sassanids (and later the Arabs) spent centuries fighting over.