IMO: Losing agent skill for using them is bad idea

[dearmad]

It's just not fun and doesn't add to the gameplay. It should happen a lot rarer that you LOSE skills and such. As it is we stand to lose the agent, piss off another faction, etc... this additional punishment for playing the game is not needed IMO.

Take a page out of sid mieier's game design class: ADD something for succeeding, ADD something a little less for failing. Taking away for abject failure, is, of course, quite fine, IMO.

[Medieval Knievel]

Ahhh, Sid 'the master' Meier. He seems to have a pragmatic and logical approach to designing games...

Taking away agent skill makes no sense whatsoever. In real life a person would gain experience from a situation whether they succeeded or failed.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

It gets worse!

Some agents loose all their skills for one failed attempt. Even worse for diplomats. I had a 4+ experience diplomat at Rome and opened the diplomacy screen but then realized that I didn't have anything to offer (no money). After closing the diplomacy screen my diplomat was promoted to 0+ experience. Cool or what!

[dearmad]

OMFG that sucks. Glad that hasn't happened to me yet...

loads of little details needs a little patchin' love, I think.

[lawngnome]

I think it is this way because, in the end, it's like your agent seems great, 6-xp worthy, but then through an erred mission a hole in his game is opened, and he's actually only a 4-xp quality... he's not actually getting worse, it's just that there is something that he is lacking that I didn't know about before... eh, that's how I look at it.

In the end, raising skill isn't too hard anyway, so I've never had a problem with it... sometimes an agent will really go down the crapper and I just have to get him killed, but I like that... agents need to have flaws... they are supposed to be real people, after all. Just because you start off good at something, that doesn't mean you will keep getting better or even stay at the same level, sometimes people really do decay in their abilities (think young star athletes that fizzled)... so I like it.

[Naja]

I think it is this way because, in the end, it's like your agent seems great, 6-xp worthy, but then through an erred mission a hole in his game is opened, and he's actually only a 4-xp quality... he's not actually getting worse, it's just that there is something that he is lacking that I didn't know about before... eh, that's how I look at it.

In the end, raising skill isn't too hard anyway, so I've never had a problem with it... sometimes an agent will really go down the crapper and I just have to get him killed, but I like that... agents need to have flaws... they are supposed to be real people, after all. Just because you start off good at something, that doesn't mean you will keep getting better or even stay at the same level, sometimes people really do decay in their abilities (think young star athletes that fizzled)... so I like it.

Well ordinarily yes, this would be acceptable, but you have to keep in mind that assassins can't kill much of anything unless you focus an obsessive amount of time on them (and an equally obsessive amount of saving and reloading). How are you supposed to build up your assassins' skill level when:

I. Smaller profile agents (merchants, diplomats, priests) are challenging, if not impossible, for lower tiered assassins to kill.

II. On top of that, unless your assassin has a perfect track record, he's just going to get worse and worse with his "killer on edge" trait.

Both need attention, but one thing's for sure: assassins can't be useful or even relevant if both of those facts are the case.

[dearmad]

I'd like it more if my assassins were worth their weight in at least... oh... I dunno crap? LOL.

[2ltben]

Assassins are very easy to train, it just requires a bit of reloading for failed missions. With my subterfuge units, I always save before and after successful missions and keep reloading until I get it right(its not perfect, you can be reloading quite often for high profile targets, and sometimes its just not worth it), but with Diplomats, hell, just send them on gift-giving missions. I never had a problem with outpacing every other faction in my economy, so I always have plenty to spare for my diplomats. What's 15000 if I get the HRE on my side in my wars with France or Milan?

[UnderdawgIV]

Reloading? I won't force you to play the game you want to play it, but I'm not the type of person to reload unless it was some stupid mistake due to drunkeness, sleepiness, or just plain noobness? (Couldn't find a third word )

[2ltben]

Reloading? I won't force you to play the game you want to play it, but I'm not the type of person to reload unless it was some stupid mistake due to drunkeness, sleepiness, or just plain noobness? (Couldn't find a third word )

The only targets I actively seek are the huge threats, such as monarchs, heir apparents, and cardinals. The kind of units you never get above 40% on.

[rastak]

Reloading? I won't force you to play the game you want to play it, but I'm not the type of person to reload unless it was some stupid mistake due to drunkeness, sleepiness, or just plain noobness? (Couldn't find a third word )

Yea, reloading is really a lame way to play. But he who pays the money gets to use the product the way they want. I reloaded only once and that was because I didn't pause after the wife started pestering me about some thing and as I'm listening I hear my general die in the backround....

[ProudNerd]

Reloading? I won't force you to play the game you want to play it, but I'm not the type of person to reload unless it was some stupid mistake due to drunkeness, sleepiness, or just plain noobness? (Couldn't find a third word )

Indeed peopel who reload just so they wont lose are lame. Take it like a man.

[FriendoftheDork]

Assassins are very easy to train, it just requires a bit of reloading for failed missions. With my subterfuge units, I always save before and after successful missions and keep reloading until I get it right(its not perfect, you can be reloading quite often for high profile targets, and sometimes its just not worth it), but with Diplomats, hell, just send them on gift-giving missions. I never had a problem with outpacing every other faction in my economy, so I always have plenty to spare for my diplomats. What's 15000 if I get the HRE on my side in my wars with France or Milan?

That's the problem, in order to use assassins properly as it is you need to reload which is basically cheating. I do it myself, no higher ground here, but I'd like a game where I wouldn't HAVE to reload but where i Could live with the consequences of failure. And no I can't live with my 5 xp assassin dying in an attempt to kill my ally's 0 rank princess (about 90% chance) as this causes war and whatnot just for trying to train the assassin!

[Markas]

Perhaps a better system would be increased chance of assassination success but you have to pay money up front for the job, dependent upon the character you wish to kill.

Example- A low-level diplomat costs 500 florins for a 50% to kill for a three XP Assassin, whereas it costs 8000 florins for a 50% to kill a faction leader with the same XP assassin. The Killer could have traits that lowered the cost e.g 'loyalist' or 'kills for pleasure' or traits that increased it e.g 'Money-grubber' or 'leaves gold-leaf calling cards'. I'm sure you all get my drift...

[lawngnome]

Yeah, I limit myself to 1 reload... if my assassin fails against a big guy I reload and move on with my life. On the small stuff when he's just a baby assassin I will let him die, though. If he gets to 5xp he is worth a reload, lower than that I let the guards stick him

Spies always deserve to die. How hard is it to walk into a city? Geez!

[2ltben]

I've never had a spy die on me. Most information you can get from outside the city, but I still use them for seiges and assassin information near capitals.

[lawngnome]

Killing princesses or 0xp diplomats is above 50% for a new assassin in my experience... and the first few kills always seem to net a few bonuses... just prey on the weak for a few years and you have a decent assassin. Enemy assassins are surprisingly easy to kill as well.

I've even killed off generals with a 1 subterfuge assassin. I lose some that way early in their life, well, quite a few, but that's how it goes. They are practically medieval WMD's, so don't expect them to come easily.

If you pull off that 20% kill on that 4-star general with your young assassin, he usually is amply rewarded... I had 1 assassin go from 2 subterfuge to 6 with one kill... I was even trying to get rid of that assassin, as I was trying to revamp my economy. Needless to say he stuck around for many years to come.

[Endeav]

Having an assassin's guild HQ puts out assassins with a minimum of 4 skill, averaging 5-6 right off the bat. These guys are extremely easy to train as killing a captain or a princess is a guaranteed kill and some additional traits. With this amount of experience, its easy to get a monarch killer, who's unlikely to fail in all his shady dealings

[dearmad]

3 skill actually, from what I have seen.

[Aristocrat]

I agree with you Dearmad.
The game mechanic that an assassin somehow becomes a worse assassin for missing a target and living just seems silly, I mean, people DO learn from mistakes don't they. I like the idea that an assassin who fails is not good as a successful one as well though, as this adds a sense of balance.

My personal way of doing this though, would have been through traits alone, in that an assassin who fails say five times gets a trait such as "Doubts own ability" and that assassins skill level is reduced until he "breaks his drought".

That type of system would have suited better, but then again I only get that type of idea from having played mods such as EB, which revolutionised the traits system in terms of scope and power.

As for diplomats losing all their "skill", it isn't skill, it is influence, an arrogant ill-mannered diplomat will surely have less influence than an eloquent, "down-to-earth" one.
Of course, my thoughts on diplomats are that their influence should be affected by the influence of their monarch as well, but Im not sure if that is moddable.