Caucasian-Cappadocian Roster

[Doulkus Pontikus]

First of all the full Caucasian roster includes:

-Caucasian Spearmen (Katpatuka Astibara)
melee atttack = 2
missile attack = 9
Charge = 4

Defence = 11
Armour = 3
Skill =6
Shield =2
Bonus fighting cavalry

-Caucasian Archers (Thanvare Katpatuka)
melee atttack = 5
missile attack = 3
Charge = 2

Defence = 9
Armour = 3
Skill =6
Shield =0

Poor morale

-Caucasian Tribesmen (Katpatuka Zanteucsh)
melee atttack = 5
missile attack = 9
Charge = 4

Defence = 11
Armour = 3
Skill =6
Shield =2

-Caucasian Cavalry (Katpatuka Asabara)
melee atttack = 7
missile attack = 8
Charge = 4

Defence = 10
Armour = 5
Skill =5
Shield =0 (!?!)

Let's start with the obvious. Eventhough the whole roster is called Cappadocian (Katpatuka) they are not recruited in either of the core Cappadocian Regions! At least in the campaigns i've played with Pontos, Armenia, Pahlava, Macedon and Seleuceia the majority of the Cappadocian units (with the exeption of the Tribesmen) cannot be recruited in Amaseia (Cappadocia Pontica) or Mazaka (Cappadocia) from the Indigenous Conscription building. Same thing goes for the Allied Coverment options.
The funny thing is that the Archers and Spearmen CAN be recruited by the same building (lvl 1-2-3) in the neighbouring non Cappadocian regions of Armenia! The Cavalry can't be recruited in any of these regions (lvl 1-2-3) BUT is recruitable (lvl 3) in almost ALL the Iranian plateu as far as Harmozeia and Alexandropolis in the Indian borders!

Shouldn't small factions like Pontos or Armenia have access to the native forces?

Especially since historically we know that both Kingdoms had strong ties with the native population and both of them severely lack quality recruitment options at least in the beggining. The only Pontic Goverment option before the Reforms that provides some recruitment is Stratigeies (just Doriphoroi Pontikoi and wait for it...Cappadocian Cavalry). Armenia has it easy since they at least have access to their own Armenian Units (Hai Nizagamartik Spearmen, Nizakahar light cavalry and Aspet minor noble cavalry).

Plus why on earth is Cappadocian Cavalry recruitable in India and not in Asia Minor?

Speaking of Cappadocian Cavalry, I think that is the most underpowered cavalry unit. If you check their stats they are the only cavalry unit in the game that, eventhough is depicted holding a shield, they get NO SHIELD bonus! All other similar units in the region (Asiatikoi Hippakontistes, Nizakahar, Greek Hippakontistes) carry shields and get the +2 bonus to defence. Also for some reason they only carry one javelin each so they can't be used as skirmishers. You could say that their role is to used as a full impact melee force since they carry spears. If it is so, then why they don't get a charge bonus? It seems weird that lighter cavalry units (like Asiatikoi Hippakontistes) get a charge bonus of 5 where the much heavier Cappadocian only get a 4. What is also strange is that Greek, Illyrian, Dacian, Armenian, Median and Steppe light-to-medium cavalry all have a respectable charge bonus (around 10) and only the aristocratic semi-professional Cappadocian cavalry has an underwelming 4...

I believe changes are in order.

[Sylon]

The Cappadocian Cavalry in EBII do not carry shields. The model is correctly depicted as not carrying shields; the unit card is a placeholder from EB1 and is wrong.

Equipment wise, they carry a single heavy javelin and an overhand spear. The charge value is actually 11, not 4; the game merely displays the charge value of the primary weapon, in this case a javelin.

Can't comment about the recruitment bit, that's not my area of expertise.

Thanks for the feedback, though.

[QuintusSertorius]

They're not Cappadocian or Caucasian units, they're Anatolian units. Says so in their descriptions.

Unit stats are based on what we know of their equipment, status, training and so on. They are not based on what seems fair or proportionate for a region, and note that what a unit costs is based on those very same things. Which is why most of those units you mention are cheap and easily available.

Also note that the reports of charge values on the in-game unit cards for any unit which throws a javelin before charging is wrong. Also note that any unit which throws one before charging can only have one javelin, because of some hardcoded nonsense.

The Native Colony building is not designed to simply provide local troops, it's designed to provide quality, warrior-grade local troops. The Anatolian units are for the most part local levies, and not what the colonies are designed to provide.

The reason Anatolians are available as regionals and in the colony buildings in the Caucasus is the absence of suitable regional troops in the current roster. Pontos and Hayastan are awaiting new units to broaden and improve their roster, like Galatianised infantry.

I don't recognise the recruitment you're talking about for the pontos3, it is thus:

;Strategiai (Pontic Administration)
        pontos3 city requires factions { f_pontos,  } and not building_present govallied
        {
            capability	;;;	Recruitment pool 12 * 0.04 - up to 8 * 0.04 comes from the colony buildings that this goverment enables, which leaves 4 * 0.04 directly here
            {
				recruit_pool "eastern cavalry cappadoccian"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_pontos, }
				recruit_pool "eastern infantry kavakaza sparabara"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_pontos, }

Cappadocian cavalry isn't recruitable in India (in fact the only places you can get them at all are in Allied Governments in Anatolia and with Pontic factional governments). I'm tempted to remove them from the test build as well, since they've been removed from the development build anyway.


Uh, what version are you playing?

[The Ferret]

I noted this in the 2.04j sticky thread, but there's two different Katpatuka Asabara units available for recruitment (in the Pontic capital, at least) - different unit cards, nearly the same stats, exactly the same price. One is "Anatolian Medium Cavalry", the other is "Cappadocian Cavalry".

[QuintusSertorius]

I noted this in the 2.04j sticky thread, but there's two different Katpatuka Asabara units available for recruitment (in the Pontic capital, at least) - different unit cards, nearly the same stats, exactly the same price. One is "Anatolian Medium Cavalry", the other is "Cappadocian Cavalry".

They're two different units sharing the same model - the Cappadocians have been cut since, the Anatolians representing them as well as other regional cavalry units.

[Doulkus Pontikus]

Thank you for your answers Sylon and Quintus.

I didn't know that the charge value was referring to the primary-thrown javelin.
It seemed weird for a melee unit to have such a low charge value.

Quintus I really don't understand what you mean by:
"The Native Colony building is not designed to simply provide local troops, it's designed to provide quality, warrior-grade local troops. The Anatolian units are for the most part local levies, and not what the colonies are designed to provide.

The reason Anatolians are available as regionals and in the colony buildings in the Caucasus is the absence of suitable regional troops in the current roster".

I'm playing 2.01 (I think since I haven't upgraded to any newer version). So in this version I only get "Katpatuka" units no Eastern or Anatolian.
Also in the version I'm playing the Katpatuka Cavalry is recruitable everywhere between Antiocheia in the west to Assaak in the North East, Harmozeia to the South East and Antiocheia Eschate in the Far East.
I see no other Eastern or Anatolia Cavalry with these stats. Unless you mean the Assiatikoi Hippeis but it seems unlikely since they are a totally different unit statwise.
The question remains. Why is it so hard to make these four units available for Pontos and Armenia in the core Cappadocian regions? What is the difference between regionals and local levies?

As far as "cheap and easy to recruit" I beg to disagree.
They cost more than the comparable Greek units (hoplites haploi, toxotai, euzonoi, hippeis) are far less reliable in combat and their upkeep cost is twice as high.
If they were easy to recruit we wouldn't have this argument, would we?

I don't read script but if I understand correctly pontos3 (stratigeiai) has the same two recruitment options that I've been talking about (Katpatuka cavalry and Doryphoroi Pontikoi in my book). Any way you see it, is not much. Amaseia and Mazaka start without a Greek Polis so no other recruitment option is available but for the native colony building.

Finally the name Katpatuka means "Land of beautiful horses". The Persians populated the area heavily due to the fertile land and high quality war horses that it provided. The settled aristocrasy was famous for their equestrian tradition and the great number of horsemen they could field. They fought against Saleukids, Ptolemies and Romans. Even Alexander took them in his armies going East. So I believe that the Cappadocian cavalry should be depicted as a lot stronger in the game.

[Shadowwalker]

I'm playing 2.01 (I think since I haven't upgraded to any newer version). So in this version I only get "Katpatuka" units no Eastern or Anatolian.
Also in the version I'm playing the Katpatuka Cavalry is recruitable everywhere between Antiocheia in the west to Assaak in the North East, Harmozeia to the South East and Antiocheia Eschate in the Far East.
I see no other Eastern or Anatolia Cavalry with these stats. Unless you mean the Assiatikoi Hippeis but it seems unlikely since they are a totally different unit statwise.
The question remains. Why is it so hard to make these four units available for Pontos and Armenia in the core Cappadocian regions? What is the difference between regionals and local levies?

As far as "cheap and easy to recruit" I beg to disagree.
They cost more than the comparable Greek units (hoplites haploi, toxotai, euzonoi, hippeis) are far less reliable in combat and their upkeep cost is twice as high.
If they were easy to recruit we wouldn't have this argument, would we?

Heya Doulkus Pontikus,

If you're still playing 2.01 you are basically playing a completely different game than the one Quintus' statement is based upon, since in the last year there has been such a lot of changes to recruitment from governments and colonies or to unit stats and costs. (There were many other substantial changes/improvements as well, CAI an BAI for example.)

From my experiences both Hayasdan and Pontos campaigns have become completely different.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hayasdans start is almost "easy" nowadays (since they start with 2 provinces and therefore not in debt anymore, providing enough income to have strong garrisons in the two settlements and an additional expedition force).

Pontos is still nigh-impossible, though (even more so than EB I, to be honest). The difficulty in that campaign doesn't come from overexpensive troops anymore (although they still have one of the hardest early campaigns still, finance-wise) but from the awful lot of rebels fullstacks around that eat Pontos' income by causing devastation and that have to be dealt with before a Pontos player can start expanding.
(In fact I wasn't successful at any Pontos campaign in EB II yet, because I either went completely bankrupt without any chance to ever crawl out of it or were robbed of all FMs by the dreaded Ptolemaioi assassins or was cornered by a quick Hayasdan/Seleukid/Pergamon/Bosphoran/Sauromatae expansion or lost a battle against one of the rebel stacks and was defenseless to the next rebel army sieging Amaseia ....)

So please update your game by following the steps in the first post here:
http://http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?689221-Europa-Barbarorum-2-04j-is-released!

Of course you can wait for EB 2.1 alternatively, which is a mere few weeks away and which will have not only all the changes, tweaks and improvements 2.02 - 2.04j brought but also all the goodies and additional content that has been previewed at Twitter and here at the fora.

[QuintusSertorius]

Thank you for your answers Sylon and Quintus.

I didn't know that the charge value was referring to the primary-thrown javelin.
It seemed weird for a melee unit to have such a low charge value.

Quintus I really don't understand what you mean by:
"The Native Colony building is not designed to simply provide local troops, it's designed to provide quality, warrior-grade local troops. The Anatolian units are for the most part local levies, and not what the colonies are designed to provide.

The reason Anatolians are available as regionals and in the colony buildings in the Caucasus is the absence of suitable regional troops in the current roster".

I'm playing 2.01 (I think since I haven't upgraded to any newer version). So in this version I only get "Katpatuka" units no Eastern or Anatolian.
Also in the version I'm playing the Katpatuka Cavalry is recruitable everywhere between Antiocheia in the west to Assaak in the North East, Harmozeia to the South East and Antiocheia Eschate in the Far East.
I see no other Eastern or Anatolia Cavalry with these stats. Unless you mean the Assiatikoi Hippeis but it seems unlikely since they are a totally different unit statwise.
The question remains. Why is it so hard to make these four units available for Pontos and Armenia in the core Cappadocian regions? What is the difference between regionals and local levies?

As far as "cheap and easy to recruit" I beg to disagree.
They cost more than the comparable Greek units (hoplites haploi, toxotai, euzonoi, hippeis) are far less reliable in combat and their upkeep cost is twice as high.
If they were easy to recruit we wouldn't have this argument, would we?

I don't read script but if I understand correctly pontos3 (stratigeiai) has the same two recruitment options that I've been talking about (Katpatuka cavalry and Doryphoroi Pontikoi in my book). Any way you see it, is not much. Amaseia and Mazaka start without a Greek Polis so no other recruitment option is available but for the native colony building.

Finally the name Katpatuka means "Land of beautiful horses". The Persians populated the area heavily due to the fertile land and high quality war horses that it provided. The settled aristocrasy was famous for their equestrian tradition and the great number of horsemen they could field. They fought against Saleukids, Ptolemies and Romans. Even Alexander took them in his armies going East. So I believe that the Cappadocian cavalry should be depicted as a lot stronger in the game.

Look, to be honest, we've changed so much since 2.01 this conversation is not really going to go anywhere useful. I don't mean that to sound dismissive, just that the points you're raising don't bear any resemblance to the current state of things. As an example, every unit's cost has been reviewed and changed. I'm amazed you were able to persist with 2.01's awful battles this long, never mind many of the other things we've improved upon.

2.04j, the current version, is as good as a different game, as will 2.1 be. Update to that, play some, and you'll probably find almost all of your issues have already been addressed. Or wait a few hours for 2.04k, which has some updates for Pontos specifically.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Please update to the latest version, this version is one year back , there are tons of update since then.

[Doulkus Pontikus]

Thanks again Shadowwalker and Quintus.

I was waiting for the "full" summer release to upgrade my version.
I 'll wait some more for 2.1 version and give you some feedback after that.

[QuintusSertorius]

Thanks again Shadowwalker and Quintus.

I was waiting for the "full" summer release to upgrade my version.
I 'll wait some more for 2.1 version and give you some feedback after that.

Again being frank, feedback much is more useful now on the current version, when we can improve things for the full release, than afterwards. All the points you've raised are gameplay-related, which are all the things being tested at the moment. If you're going to be playing EBII anyway, much better that you're doing it with something that closely resembles the full release.

Upgrading is trivially easy, it's just downloading a zip, overwriting the files and running a batch file (once and only once). I would wait a few hours for 2.04k - I'm updating Pontos' factional governments at the moment.

[Doulkus Pontikus]

To bring a closure to this thread:
QS I've followed your advise and updated to 2.05 (lattest). You are right. It's a totally different game! I've noticed that the unit roster for Pontos and Armenia is much more complete and well rounded, so accept my apology. Also the unit recruitment cost for the "Katpatuka" units is now balanced to the proper values and it seems that gamewise the units are actually useful!
The addition of Celtic units to the ponticgov pools is wonderful! It gives the player a chance to actually roleplay.
If only the Pandodapoi Phallangites were not so weak compared to the rest of the Phallanx units...but then again that's also a chance to roleplay.

50 turns in my new Pontic campaign (H/M) and I managed to capture Trapezous (on turn 3), fight against three very aggressive rebel stacks (two heroic victories), capture Sinope (had to starve them of) and capture Mazaka (also after starvation). I'm now facing the menacing Ptollies who seem to make short work of the Seleukids.
The Pergamenese have captured Bithynia, Byzantion and Galatia and are expanding into Europe. The Armenians are really aggressive. They have already taken all of Caucasus and declared war to the Seleukids. Kimmerians took Crimea and are now at war against Sauromatae who have managed to set foot at Kutatisi.

I've noticed that in the East things are moving really really fast, while in the West only Pyrhos has made a move against Romans and the Arverni, Audui, Arevaci and Prittanoi only took one one rebel province each. The Saba and Nabatu are racing to unite the Arabiv provinces. The Carthagenians sit still once again, while the Massylians are super aggresive and taken hold of most of Africa.

On a funny note EVERYONE is aligned to EVERYONE and noone want to ally with me!

[Sarkiss]

To bring a closure to this thread:
Armenia is much more complete and well rounded ... The Armenians are really aggressive. They have already taken all of Caucasus and declared war to the Seleukids.

the latter is probably the result of you playing as Pontus; the former is very wrong, and in fact, the opposite is true atm (noticed Bactrians being recruitable in Armenia?)

[QuintusSertorius]

the latter is probably the result of you playing as Pontus; the former is very wrong, and in fact, the opposite is true atm (noticed Bactrians being recruitable in Armenia?)

They were a placeholder for the Anatolikoi Phyletai - but have now been replaced by the (defunct) Cappadocian Tribesmen for the time being in the test build.