Real Combat 2.0 and EDU Guides

[Melooo182]

http://medieval2.heavengames.com/m2t...de/index.shtml

PB's RC guide
http://www.mediafire.com/view/kbpnab...L_WIP_info.txt

k/t's AP removal from blade Polearms
http://www.mediafire.com/view/u2ymma...ap_weapons.txt

k/t's pricing guide
http://www.mediafire.com/view/x888e3...ing_System.txt

Paleologos Combat Changes proposal, based on RC1.8 apparently judging by armour types
http://www.mediafire.com/view/5a1ol1...s_Draft_01.txt

So if we were to change Saxon Huscarls from Superior to Elite

Superior

type             English Huscarls
dictionary       English_Huscarls      ; English Huscarls, m
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_infantry
banner holy      crusade
soldier          English_Huscarls, 48, 0, 1.125, 0.5
officer          northern_captain
officer          northern_captain_early_flag
officer          northern_captain_early_flag
mount_effect     horse +1, camel +1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, mercenary_unit
formation        1.2, 1.0, 2.4, 2.0, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         14, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 75, 1
stat_pri_attr    no ; ap ; 2H axe
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  5, 8, 0, metal ;slung shield +1 armour ;
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        8
stat_ground      0, -2, 1, 0 
stat_mental      9, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 360, 360, 90, 70, 495, 4, 90
armour_ug_levels 7
armour_ug_models English_Huscarls
ownership        slave, england, hre, byzantium
recruit_priority_offset    15

Elite

type             English Huscarls
dictionary       English_Huscarls      ; Mercenary Húskarlar, m, ELITE
category         infantryclass            heavy
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_infantry
banner holy      crusade
soldier          English_Huscarls, 48, 0, 1.15, 0.5
officer          northern_captain
officer          northern_captain_early_flag
officer          northern_captain_early_flag
mount_effect     horse +1, camel +1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, mercenary_unit, command
formation        1.2, 1.0, 2.4, 2.0, 4, square
stat_health      1, 2
stat_pri         16, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 60, 1
stat_pri_attr    no ; ap ; 2H axe
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  6, 9, 0, metal ;slung shield +1 armour ;
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        9
stat_ground      0, -2, 1, 0 
stat_mental      12, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 400, 400, 90, 70, 495, 4, 90
armour_ug_levels 7, 14
armour_ug_models English_Huscarls, English_Huscarls
ownership        slave, england, hre, byzantium
recruit_priority_offset    15

HELP!
Am I doing it right?
Didn't use k/t's guide for pricing, so just increased price by 40f.

[k/t]

The "category" and "class" ended up on the same line in the second code spoiler.

16 is kinda high for a two-handed axe, even without AP. I think I had it at 13 originally. Now I'm wondering if a two-handed axe shouldn't stay AP. It packs a wallop. You're leaving the halberds, voulges, bills and poleaxes AP, right? And the maces.

Only Exceptional mercenaries have "command", but the other kinds of units have it at Elite.

For the mass, you have to average out the masses of the armour upgrades with the mass of the staring armour, but I always just use the heaviest, though. It doesn't really matter, as long as you're consistent. I do it my way because it's easier and because units will eventually end up with the armour upgrades, whether they're mine or the AI's. Also because I want the infantry to be heavier so they withstand cavalry better. That's why I use the older mass numbers, with the 0 armour starting at 0.7. I am planning to slice 2 from the charge values for cavalry weapons to see if that makes charges against good infantry less deadly. Cavalry is way too strong in M2 because it doesn't take casualties when running smack into infantry, even though in real life it would.

I would give those guys armour upgrade level 11 instead of 14, if you make them Elite. They would certainly have access to the good armour early on. In fact, I would start them directly with Heavy Mail and not give them an upgrade.

I also give the 15 attack delay penalty if the heaviest armour has it, as well as the heat stat of the heaviest armour. Consistency.

Defense 4 + mail 1 + elite 3 + agility 1 = 9, so that checks out. However, a long time ago, I changed to a different distribution for high quality bonuses and I like it more:

Superior still gets +1/+2, but Elite gets +2/+4 instead of +3/+3, and Exceptional gets +3/+5 instead of +4/+4. Spearmen get +0/+2, +1/+3, +2/+4 instead of +1/+1, +2/+2, +3/+3. It's the same amount of bonus, but skewed towards defense. This makes high quality units tougher and they take fewer casualties when fighting crappier units, as they should. Spearmen become a more defensive unit as a result. It also makes battles last longer.

I don't know about the price. I suppose it makes sense. Just like with the rest of the stats, what matters most is consistency. You also have to look at how readily available money is in your mod (but that goes for every unit's price). However, I don't think mercenaries should be too expensive compared to other units. They were cheaper than standing armies and they were widely used.

I'm thinking of reducing the charge bonus for infantry to 1 for one-handed weapons and 2 for two-handed weapons. Here's a discussion of the issue: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...s-be-decreased

I also want to change short bows to 1, longbows and composite bows to 2, and then take 2 out of every crossbow, since missiles are too powerful in RC at the moment. Units wearing heavy mail should be almost impervious to archers. There's a long-running discussion of that in the SSHIP discussion thread.

[+Marius+]

Now I'm wondering if a two-handed axe shouldn't stay AP. It packs a wallop. You're leaving the halberds, voulges, bills and poleaxes AP, right?

Bladed weaponry should definitely have no AP value.

Bladed polerams should be represented with a higher base damage value instead.

[Melooo182]

Thanks for the imput

In Titanium all Bladed weapons got the AP removed, only hammers, maces and knightly poleaxes got yo keep it.
i used the damage values in that table, will probably make my own guide merging all these later

I'm thinking of reducing the charge bonus for infantry to 1 for one-handed weapons and 2 for two-handed weapons. Here's a discussion of the issue:http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...s-be-decreased

I also want to change short bows to 1, longbows and composite bows to 2, and then take 2 out of every crossbow, since missiles are too powerful in RC at the moment. Units wearing heavy mail should be almost impervious to archers. There's a long-running discussion of that in the SSHIP discussion thread.

Hmmm very interesting, yes eastern HA really do perform waaay too good, I will try those values as well

[+Marius+]

Well the entire roster now kinda needs an overhaul, which I have delayed for too long.

Why did anyone increase the one handed axe damage so much?

Huscarls now do more damage than the most elite knights which is idiotic, swords are far more versatile and deadly than one handed axes and should not be in any way represented as doing less damage, there are very good reasons why everyone who could, used swords...a 5 to 50 times more expensive weapon mind you(depending on which region or period).

One handed axes should maybe get a +1/2 damage trait merely for their weight balance focus, it is exclusively the two handed weaponry that should benefit from the base damage increase...which is again to high.

When I said "represented with a higher damage value" I did not mean doubling it ffs...16-18 damage for early era two handed axes, what are they made of, unobtainium?

I will try and finish the unit_descr overhaul, I have already been testing stuff sporadically for weeks and it is taking some time because all the value changes that have been done.

[Melooo182]

Hmmm posted some ideas of paleo for combat

maybe we should start merging these tables and flesh out a proper and comprensible system to edit the EDU
If you're overhauling the EDU please acompany it with a documentation so everyone can understand what''s being changed and why
Also for keeping track of concistency

[paleologos]

Well the entire roster now kinda needs an overhaul, which I have delayed for too long.

Sure.

Why did anyone increase the one handed axe damage so much?

I know nothing about that.

Huscarls now do more damage than the most elite knights which is idiotic, swords are far more versatile and deadly than one handed axes and should not be in any way represented as doing less damage, there are very good reasons why everyone who could, used swords...a 5 to 50 times more expensive weapon mind you(depending on which region or period).

One handed axes should maybe get a +1/2 damage trait merely for their weight balance focus, it is exclusively the two handed weaponry that should benefit from the base damage increase...which is again to high.

When I said "represented with a higher damage value" I did not mean doubling it ffs...16-18 damage for early era two handed axes, what are they made of, unobtainium?

Marius:
No offence meant, but I will weep of joy and pop open a bottle of Dom Perignon the day you shed the notion that the attack rating of a troop type is an attribute of the hardware they wield.
Quite frankly the attack rating is not an attribute of the hardware.
Armywise, the Dane Axe is not a weapon, it's just a piece of hardware.
The Housecarl is the weapon.
And the specialists that were chosen to be members of such elite fellowships, were chosen not only for their skill and experience, but for their combination of size and agility as well.
Keep in mind that wielding the two handed axe to full effect meant that they could not use their shield at the same time.
This meant that they had to compensate for this disadvantage by way of berserk-ish offensiveness.
There was also one special technique of their's that cannot be simulated directly in the game's engine.
It was the left-handed swing, i.e. the axe would be brought down-right from the wielder's uper left.
This had the effect of causing the -usually- right-handed- defendant to turn the left side (shield held on the left hand) of his body towards the attacker for his defense and inevitably the right side of his body (the one holding the sword) away from the attacker.
I certainly would not give nearly as high an attack rating to Transylvanian peasants or east european foresters.
One should also take into account the longer reach of the Dane Axe and the much higher linear velocity of the axehead moving at that longer a distance from the pivot point.
And by the way, those axeheads were not made of unobtainium.
They were made of Valyrian steel.

[+Marius+]

No offence meant, but I will weep of joy and pop open a bottle of Dom Perignon the day you shed the notion that the attack rating of a troop type is an attribute of the hardware they wield.

It absolutely is, otherwise there would not be a constant arms race through human history with everyone trying to get the best and most perfected weapon available.

Quite frankly the attack rating is not an attribute of the hardware.
Armywise, the Dane Axe is not a weapon, it's just a piece of hardware.

I just got dizzy from my eyes rolling.

The Housecarl is the weapon.
And the specialists that were chosen to be members of such elite fellowships, were chosen not only for their skill and experience, but for their combination of size and agility as well.

So..basically any other professional soldier on Earth, in this time period?

Keep in mind that wielding the two handed axe to full effect meant that they could not use their shield at the same time.
This meant that they had to compensate for this disadvantage by way of berserk-ish offensiveness.
There was also one special technique of their's that cannot be simulated directly in the game's engine.

Nope.
The two handed axe is nothing but a regular polearm and people who used ti were not berserkers.

This had the effect of causing the -usually- right-handed- defendant to turn the left side (shield held on the left hand) of his body towards the attacker for his defense and inevitably the right side of his body (the one holding the sword) away from the attacker.

That is just a form of a single attack, not the entire span of the weapons usage.

One should also take into account the longer reach of the Dane Axe and the much higher linear velocity of the axehead moving at that longer a distance from the pivot point.

It was a polearm with an axe head, nothing more.
The axe head rarely exceeded 900 grams.

And by the way, those axeheads were not made of unobtainium.
They were made of Valyrian steel.

Nope, out of beskar

[paleologos]

Man if I extrapolate your notions to swords, then any peasant with a sword and maille would be nearly as competent as any knight.
The levels of training, physical fitness, ability to obtain nutrition, and personal talent, all made a greater difference than the hardware.
A trained knight with a dagger is deadlier than any peasant with a sword.
If you are not trained in handling edged hardware you are more likely to cut yourself than any other.
And btw, when a warrior is fighting in a real battle situation, he is fighting for his life, nothing more, nothing else, so every advantage he can get before or during the battle, he will try to get it.

[+Marius+]

Man if I extrapolate your notions to swords, then any peasant with a sword and maille would be nearly as competent as any knight.
The levels of training, physical fitness, ability to obtain nutrition, and personal talent, all made a greater difference than the hardware.
A trained knight with a dagger is deadlier than any peasant with a sword.
If you are not trained in handling edged hardware you are more likely to cut yourself than any other.
And btw, when a warrior is fighting in a real battle situation, he is fighting for his life, nothing more, nothing else, so every advantage he can get before or during the battle, he will try to get it.

What does any of that have to do with axemen having a higher melee damage value than swordsmen of the same roster rank?

[paleologos]

Man if I extrapolate your notions to swords, then any peasant with a sword and maille would be nearly as competent as any knight.
The levels of training, physical fitness, ability to obtain nutrition, and personal talent, all made a greater difference than the hardware.
A trained knight with a dagger is deadlier than any peasant with a sword.
If you are not trained in handling edged hardware you are more likely to cut yourself than any other.
And btw, when a warrior is fighting in a real battle situation, he is fighting for his life, nothing more, nothing else, so every advantage he can get before or during the battle, he will try to get it.

The above was an answer to your claims that the weapon makes the difference.
My position is that the fighter makes a much bigger difference.
Surely, when all other things are equal, a weapon that affords it's wielder a longer reach, will also make for an advantage.

What does any of that have to do with axemen having a higher melee damage value than swordsmen of the same roster rank?

Elite two-handed axemen should -IMO- be given higher (much higher) melee damage value than swordsmen of the same skill rank for the reasons I listed in post#7.
Their use of both hands, the longer reach, the higher linear velocity of the far end of a long shaft, the ability of the axe to hook a shield and pull it out of the way and the much more agressive tactics that were needed to compensate for their inability to use their shield in melee.
Historically speaking houscarls gave Norman knights the toughest run for their money.
Let's make them so that in-game we can get similar results from them.
That is to say that housecarls with slung shields should be able to slug it out at least toe-to-toe with dismounted Norman knights, them being armed with sword and shield.

[+Marius+]

Elite two-handed axemen should -IMO- be given higher (much higher) melee damage value than swordsmen of the same skill rank for the reasons I listed in post#7.
Their use of both hands, the longer reach, the higher linear velocity of the far end of a long shaft, the ability of the axe to hook a shield and pull it out of the way and the much more agressive tactics that were needed to compensate for their inability to use their shield in melee.

Yeah, I think we misunderstood each other, I was claiming that one handed axemen should not have (much)higher damage values by default.
I fully accept two handed weaponry being more deadly than single handed swords.

Historically speaking houscarls gave Norman knights the toughest run for their money.

Yeah but the Normans won.

That is to say that housecarls with slung shields should be able to slug it out at least toe-to-toe with dismounted Norman knights, them being armed with sword and shield.

The problem is that currently they have 12 attack.

This is what they do to dismounted mailed knights;




Their attack should be reduced.

[paleologos]

Yeah, I think we misunderstood each other, I was claiming that one handed axemen should not have (much)higher damage values by default.

Yes, absolutely, swords in the hands of pros are clearly better than single handed axes, no matter the profficiency of the axemen.

Yeah but the Normans won.

At Hastings, the Normans won against an adversary of limited discipline, that had forced-marched the distance from the south of England to Stamford Bridge, fought and won a battle there, then forced-marched the same distance from Yorkshire back to Hastings and they had just lost their King.
I am sure you remember reading that the Norman army almost routed much earlier in the battle when they thought their King had been slain.
The Normans won not because they were better but because they were equally good and luckier.

The problem is that currently they have 12 attack.
This is what they do to dismounted mailed knights;
Their attack should be reduced.

Mailed knights are moderately good.
Pitch houscarls against dismounted Norman Knights.
Make certain they have equal armour.
Personally I would give a rating of 12 to the defensive rating of the raindrop shaped shield, it has been described as extremely protective.
So if they both have an armour of 8(?) and the Normans have a shield of 12, figure out the rest.

[Melooo182]

According to k/t's table 1H axes were changed based on falchions which has 6dmg base value, 1 more than long swords
When axes had AP, their base value was 3

Hmmm, perhaps having both (quality 1h axes and long swords) dealing 5 would be a good compromise, keeping swords better bonuses for defense and charge
Cheap 1h axes should do much less however, perhaps relative to light swords value of 3

Although i like the idea of leveling down charge bonuses to max 2 or even 1

[+Marius+]

Ok, back from a bit of testing.

Firstly, from the campaign battles, the Muslim world can rejoice, for the king of Jerusalem and half of his elite bodyguards are dead, turns out all it took was two volleys from a single unit of dessert archers...sigh...

Secondly, and I repeated this some time ago, Islamic early bodyguards should not have lamellar barding and should not have higher stats than European bodyguards(28 defense?).

This is how Islamic horse barding looked like;







...exactly the same as the western barding, because it is the Muslims from whom the Europeans took padded barding as a concept in the first place.


Thirdly, and most importantly, charge reductions for infantry works wonders, I wholly recommend it.

My current testing goes as such;

1 charge for lower tier units
2 charge for higher tier units
3 charge for two handed weaponry wielding units
4 charge exclusively for the most elite two handers(still testing)

[Melooo182]

How would we define better those tiers in RC terms?
-----------------1H------2H
Peasant---------1-------3
Peasant Militia-1-------3
Average--------1-------3
Superior--------2-------3
Elite-------------2-------4
Exceptional-----2-------4

[k/t]

Their good performance in one battle, in specific circumstances, doesn't mean much. Discussing the quality of the Huscarls from one battle is like assuming the bow is the ultimate weapon because of Agincourt.

"A trained knight with a dagger is deadlier than any peasant with a sword."

Yeah, but we're talking about trained knights with axes compared to trained knights with swords.

I don't know if an axe has a longer reach than a sword. I'd have to see a demonstration of that. Talking about two-handed versions here, of course, since a one-handed sword has longer reach than a one-handed axe.

Halberds, voulges and bills should have AP because they all had parts meant to be used against armoured opponents. A halberd is pretty much a poleaxe with a longer handle. Why would a poleaxe have AP and the halberd not?

Your charge value table is missing Average quality.

I'd give Average 1 Charge and Superior 2.

[+Marius+]

Halberds, voulges and bills should have AP because they all had parts meant to be used against armoured opponents. A halberd is pretty much a poleaxe with a longer handle. Why would a poleaxe have AP and the halberd not?

The poleaxe has the AP because the poleaxe has a hammer end for blunt impact.

The rest of the polearms are bladed weaponry, if you are going to argue that they deserve AP because they have pointy bits, then most swords also have to get the AP trait because they also taper to a pointy point...not to mention pikes, javelins and spears...

The issue mainly comes to AP being very useful against scale/lammelar/coat of plates/brigandine/plate armor in game, irregardless of the fact that pointy stuff is not really good against metal plates, the most you will achieve with it is getting your weapon stuck;

Note; in the documentary it is stated that the breastplate is a "very thin breastplate";


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcXd3upAF8A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XngmQyV0vuA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4el5gX6_98


Even javelins do not fare that well;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB3jHljWtkQ


The poleaxe however retains its AP status because of "hammer time";

[k/t]

There is no such word as "irregardless".

"The rest of the polearms are bladed weaponry, if you are going to argue that they deserve AP because they have pointy bits, then most swords also have to get the AP trait because they also taper to a pointy point...not to mention pikes, javelins and spears..."

That's a nice stretch and exaggeration. You're quite the straw man master, I've noticed. I'm surprised you didn't say Ritterbruder should get +1 to attack since their helmets have pointy horns.

The poleaxe has an axe...it's a bladed polearm...

The rest of the polearms have a lot of momentum behind them, just like the poleaxe. It doesn't matter if the poleaxe has the "flat", uneven surface or not. A lot of them don't: http://myarmoury.com/feature_spot_poleaxe.html

If Loades had hit the breastplate with any polearm, you would have gotten a lot of shock to the jelly.

Poleaxes, just like the other polearms, were versatile because they could be used against armoured or unarmoured opponents. They had parts able to deal with either.

I don't consider Conquest to be a documentary. It's only a step above The Deadliest Warrior.

The weapon got stuck in the wood behind the breastplate. That might be a concern for Uruk-Hai who have to fight Ents, but not for anyone in SS.

[+Marius+]

There is no such word as "irregardless".

It exists.
It's not widely accepted.
But it exists.

That's a nice stretch and exaggeration. You're quite the straw man master, I've noticed.

How exactly?
The polearms you are advocating as being AP are bladed weapons not specifically designed for blunt trauma.

The poleaxe has an axe...it's a bladed polearm...

It also has a hammer end.

The rest of the polearms have a lot of momentum behind them, just like the poleaxe.

Which is why they have a higher base damage value which represents that.

It doesn't matter if the poleaxe has the "flat", uneven surface or not. A lot of them don't: http://myarmoury.com/feature_spot_poleaxe.html

It's all about the hammer side.

If Loades had hit the breastplate with any polearm, you would have gotten a lot of shock to the jelly.

Which is why they have a higher base damage value which represents that.

I don't consider Conquest to be a documentary. It's only a step above The Deadliest Warrior.

I agree with that, but you can't really mess up stabbing a breastplate with a sword or a pick that much.

The weapon got stuck in the wood behind the breastplate.

Nope, went barely an inch in, you can clearly see that.
In order for it to reach the wood, the spike would have to travel nearly to the shaft.