Hamas clip: we'll drink Jews' blood

[dr0p]

(From an Hebrew article at www.pmw.org.il , translated by me)

The Hamas' website have published a last testament of two suicide bombers(Shahids). Two main themes have been brought there:
1st addresses the Jews, whom their blood he is promise to drink "untill they flee the Muslim lands". The 2nd addresses one of their mother who helped him gear up for his holy mission.
http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas_suicideHeb.asx

"My message for the hated Jews, there is not God except Allah, we will hunt you everywhere, when you awake and when you go to sleep... we are a nation of blood drinkers(********s, they stole our title! - dr0p) and we know theres no finer blood than Jewish blood. We will not let you go untill we will slake(?) with your blood and slake our children with your blood. We will not rest untill you flee Muslim lands"

"By Allah, we will destroy you, we will bomb you, we will avenge you, we will clean this earth from you, pigs, who made our earth(notice the OUR part- dr0p) inpure. By Allah we will avenge you. We execute this mission out of fierce revenge against the sons of pigs and apes"

"My wedding(referring the 72 virgins in heaven- dr0p), I dedicate to those who have chosen Allah as a purpose, the Quran as a rule and the prophet(Muhammad) as a figure for imitation. Jihad is the only way to free Palestine, whole of Palestine from the Jewish filth"

"My dear mother, you who have kept me safe, today I sacrifice myself so I can speak well of you in Judgment day, oh my love and soul, wipe off your tears, do not be sadden, by Allah, I have accomplished every best I have hoped for. Don't let me see you cry on my weddings day when I marry Paradises' misses, so be happy and don't be sad because by Allah, after death - Allah the merciful's heaven"

The article goes on about who similar this clip is to a Palestinian teenager singer who sings to his parents not to weep over his parting (http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Farewell_letter.asx)

These two Hamas activists have been caught with explosives by IDF soldiers in Karni roadblock at Dec 7th 2004 on their way to execute suicide bombings in two different places, probably in Tel Aviv area. The two blew themselves on the spot killing a soldier and wounding some more.
The writer says theres a documentation of making the bombs and smuggling them through tunnels, but I can't seem to find it anywhere...

[Bwaho]

funny if it's true (not saying it is or isn't)


wasn't the alleged background story of "the protocols of the elders of zion" that they found them when the russian secret police busted into a jewish meeting or something like that?

[Dromikaites]

"By Allah, we will destroy you, we will bomb you, we will avenge you, we will clean this earth from you, pigs, who made our earth(notice the OUR part- dr0p) inpure.

Well, technically speaking most of the Israelis are the descendents of the Jews originally from Central and Eastern Europe, which means their ancestors were Khazars (Turcik population which convertd to Judaism, living on a territory representing today's south of Russia and Ukraine). As such, most of the Israelis of today have nothing to do with Palestine other than the fact they were born there.

On the other hand, the Arabic-speaking Palestinians are most likely the descendents of the people who lived in the area since "Biblical times" and who had converted to Islam (some even to Christianity first and Islam 600 years later).

Who was there first is however irrelevant. The Jews would return Palestina to the Palestinians most likely a few weeks after the Americans had returned USA to the American Indians.

[Denny Crane!]

Well, technically speaking most of the Israelis are the descendents of the Jews originally from Central and Eastern Europe, which means their ancestors were Khazars (Turcik population which convertd to Judaism, living on a territory representing today's south of Russia and Ukraine). As such, most of the Israelis of today have nothing to do with Palestine other than the fact they were born there.

On the other hand, the Arabic-speaking Palestinians are most likely the descendents of the people who lived in the area since "Biblical times" and who had converted to Islam (some even to Christianity first and Islam 600 years later).

Who was there first is however irrelevant. The Jews would return Palestina to the Palestinians most likely a few weeks after the Americans had returned USA to the American Indians.

This is all to true, what makes them think it is even remotely possible to remove an entrenched population of that size.

Emptying Loch Ness with a tablespoon seems more feasable.

Pete

[Bwaho]

Well, technically speaking most of the Israelis are the descendents of the Jews originally from Central and Eastern Europe, which means their ancestors were Khazars (Turcik population which convertd to Judaism, living on a territory representing today's south of Russia and Ukraine).

but didn't jews move around as well after the diaspora? if so isn't it possible that some of them went to live in this khazar land? by jews I mean as in biblical jews.

[Dromikaites]

but didn't jews move around as well after the diaspora? if so isn't it possible that some of them went to live in this khazar land? by jews I mean as in biblical jews.

The Khazars were Turkic (like the Turks, Turkmens, Kazakhs, Tatars, Azeri, Uzbeks etc.) so while of course Semitic Jews did live in towns under Khazar control, they were just a drop in the sea.

The only reason I brought the Khazars into the discussion was to explain why the educated Palestinians do not consider the Israelis have much of a moral and/or historical right to own a country there. Hence the Palestinian rethoric that land does not belong to the Jews of today which are mostly the descendents of the Khazars.

In the same time it's worth remarking that an important part of Israel's territory was bought from the Arabs and the Jewish legal and illegal immigrants first settled there. The Arab leaders became worried about the change in the ethnic structure of Palestina's population, tried to discourage the Jewish settlers and their violent actions were the start of the conflict. Contrary to what the Palestinian propaganda says, the Jews did not start by stealing the Arab land but by buying it from willing Arab owners. The stealing/ethnic cleansing was the result of the Jews winning the war.

[Syron]

aww, can't you just feel the love?



And to think some people really think there can be peace while the people that lead these freaks are elected by the Palestinians themselves.

Well, technically speaking most of the Israelis are the descendents of the Jews originally from Central and Eastern Europe, which means their ancestors were Khazars (Turcik population which convertd to Judaism, living on a territory representing today's south of Russia and Ukraine). As such, most of the Israelis of today have nothing to do with Palestine other than the fact they were born there.

False, or at least highly contraversial.

A large proportion of soviet Jews, that make up one of the largest population groups in Israel, are originally ashkenazi's. Ashkenazi's are certainly not turkic, DNA evidence confirms this. They are the decendants of the Jews that arrived in germany (ashkenaz) from the, now, sephardi lands.

While it's quite possible some are decended from the Khazar's, I doubt that the majority of Jews in Israel are related to them. If they had done, minority Jews like the Karaite's would probably not exist in eastern europe.

[dr0p]

Well, technically speaking most of the Israelis are the descendents of the Jews originally from Central and Eastern Europe, which means their ancestors were Khazars (Turcik population which convertd to Judaism, living on a territory representing today's south of Russia and Ukraine). As such, most of the Israelis of today have nothing to do with Palestine other than the fact they were born there.

On the other hand, the Arabic-speaking Palestinians are most likely the descendents of the people who lived in the area since "Biblical times" and who had converted to Islam (some even to Christianity first and Islam 600 years later).

Actually most Israelis are not from Ashkenaz(Europe), such as my ex-girlfriend whos roots are from Iraq, these are called Spharadim(Spanish, after the Jewish exile from Spain in 1400-something, they basically settled everywhere, especially in Northern Africa and the Middle East).
Not including the lost tribes of Israel, you can find Jews in Africa and India(this week there was a ceremony to welcome 200 Jews from India who claim to be descendant of the Menashe tribe). You can also go to a street in Jerusalem called Mea Hashearim(100 gates), its a street where everyone there are ultra-religious(and anti-Zionists, by the way), people down there are 13-14 generation in Israel or something.

I am Ashkenazi, both my grandparents are from Poland.

[Dromikaites]

Actually most Israelis are not from Ashkenaz(Europe), such as my ex-girlfriend whos roots are from Iraq, these are called Spharadim(Spanish, after the Jewish exile from Spain in 1400-something, they basically settled everywhere, especially in Northern Africa and the Middle East).
Not including the lost tribes of Israel, you can find Jews in Africa and India(this week there was a ceremony to welcome 200 Jews from India who claim to be descendant of the Menashe tribe). You can also go to a street in Jerusalem called Mea Hashearim(100 gates), its a street where everyone there are ultra-religious(and anti-Zionists, by the way), people down there are 13-14 generation in Israel or something.

I am Ashkenazi, both my grandparents are from Poland.

I am affraid the Israeli government itself would disagree with you. Here's a link to the official statistics of the Israeli Ministry of Immigrant Absorbtion:
http://www.moia.gov.il/english/netun...mDoch=1&ezor=0

We see the Eastern European Jews make 63% of the total and we also see 7.9% immigrants from North America. Unless you think those immigrants from North America are the Jewish tribe form the book of Mormon () then they are also European Jews and most of the European Jews who left for North America are actually Central and East European ones. The Sephards went mainly to South America.

My position on the issue of the right of Israel to exist is the following: as long as there's an UN decision setting the borders of the Jewish state, the maximum the Arabs have the right to get back is the land outside the UN borders (including half of Jerusalem). In the same time that piece of land occupied by Israel outside the UN borders has a price as any piece of real estate has one. Even assuming that land is as expensive as the one in Japan, still its value can be determined. So if Israel really needs to keep that land for security reasons the Israeli government and/or the Jewish organizations abroad should compensate the Arabs for it and that should be enough.

What Hamas does is extremely stupid because the end result is long term poverty and suffering for the Arab population. Why not take the money for the land plus the huge amounts the US and the EU are willing topump into rebuilding Palestine and be done with it? And even assuming the Arabs would eventualy wipe out Israel (quite likely once the oil is gone and the US loses interest in defending its favourite lapdog), the cost of doing so would far exced the benefits (transforming all that area into a nuclear wasteland).

[OriginOfSymmetry]

And even assuming the Arabs would eventualy wipe out Israel (quite likely once the oil is gone and the US loses interest in defending its favourite lapdog)

im quite intersted- why so?
israel has no oil in it, so if the arab ran out of oil theyll lose their cards against the US and europe, therefore the ties between israel and the US would get better (assuming there will be another enegy source and blah blah blah...).
i heard so many people say what you said, and i never understood why, so please explain to me

and the link you gave is for immigration for 2000 and beyond, not for the poppulation in israel, unless you think that 230,000 people are living in israel...
most of the newcomers nowdays are from the former USSR.

[Dromikaites]

im quite intersted- why so?
israel has no oil in it, so if the arab ran out of oil theyll lose their cards against the US and europe, therefore the ties between israel and the US would get better (assuming there will be another enegy source and blah blah blah...).
i heard so many people say what you said, and i never understood why, so please explain to me

Israel is interesting only as long as there's oil in the Middle East. Here's why:
When Israel became independent the Americans were not keen to support it being affraid it would make them impopular among the Arab states. What changed the situation was the increasing influence of the Soviet Union in the area. The Arabs were pissed off both on Israel and on the former colonial powers (Brittain and France) which were still trying to meddle in the affairs of the Middle East. This is why even though the Arab leaders of the time were not too enthusiatic about communism they accepted the Soviet aid. Fearful the Soviets might end up controlling the oil of the Middle East the US government started to support Israel. Israel would be used to fight proxy wars in the region for the next 50+ years. The smarter Arab leaders learned the Soviet Union can't provide the same level of support as the US so they started to come to terms with the US first and Israels second. US was seen as the only power that could influence Israel, the only superpower able to prevent Israel from annexing as much Arab territory as it saw fit.

Therefore while the US became unpopular with the majority of the Arabs it also became the one and only "referee" of the Middle East. Once the oil is gone the US has nothing to gain from further supporting Israel. The initial Arab-Jewish conflict had in the mean time became a conflict between US and a large part of the world's Muslim population. The Jews are less than 20 million while the Muslims are over 1 billion and counting. Only those lunatics who believe the Jews run the US government imagine that the US government would prefer 20 million to 1 billion.

and the link you gave is for immigration for 2000 and beyond, not for the poppulation in israel, unless you think that 230,000 people are living in israel...
most of the newcomers nowdays are from the former USSR.

Here's a good starting point for those interested in researching the origins of the Jewish population of Israel:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../immigtoc.html

[dr0p]

I am affraid the Israeli government itself would disagree with you. Here's a link to the official statistics of the Israeli Ministry of Immigrant Absorbtion:
http://www.moia.gov.il/english/netun...mDoch=1&ezor=0

We see the Eastern European Jews make 63% of the total and we also see 7.9% immigrants from North America. Unless you think those immigrants from North America are the Jewish tribe form the book of Mormon () then they are also European Jews and most of the European Jews who left for North America are actually Central and East European ones. The Sephards went mainly to South America.

Thats a list of how many Jews have immigrated from where from 2000 onwards, not how many Jews there are in Israel...
Which makes sense since most immigrated are Russians and theres simply no more Jews left in Arab nations.

I said North AFRICA, not AMERICA... I know American Jews are European...

Hamas, using their own language, have agreed to a peaceful co-existance with Israel and are open to talks.

Good one, I almost laughed...

[Simetrical]

Well, technically speaking most of the Israelis are the descendents of the Jews originally from Central and Eastern Europe, which means their ancestors were Khazars (Turcik population which convertd to Judaism, living on a territory representing today's south of Russia and Ukraine).

At least two genetic studies seem to disagree. What's the evidence for majority Khazar ancestry?

The majority on both sides agree to a 2-state proposal with a common capital of Jerusalem.

Both sides apparently agree by a solid majority that a two-state solution is best (see here, and here in particular).

It is complete riddles to me why this is still such a major issue. . . . Get a task force togeather and work out the details.

The issue is the details. Palestinians tend to want things Israelis are absolutely unwilling to give: right of return, for instance. Israelis, on the other hand, tend to want things Palestinians are either unwilling or unable to give, like cessation of violence.

Hamas, using their own language, have agreed to a peaceful co-existance with Israel and are open to talks.

Well, if you call offering to cease firing rockets (but continue sending suicide bombers) "peaceful coexistence", yes. But nowhere have they said, that I know of, that they're willing to live peacefully with Israel in the long run. Reuters quotes the leader of Islamic Jihad as saying "For the good of the national Palestinian interest ... there is a position supporting calm (a ceasefire)". Ceasefires are inherently temporary, and to my knowledge Hamas' charter still declares that coexistence with Israel is incompatible with Islam.

It was a one-off however. It is said the Jewish traders believed them to be worthy of being Jews. Traditionally it is true, that you cannot convert to Judaism. An exception was made only for the khazar.

A common misconception. Conversion has been accepted by Jews since ancient times. The entire Book of Ruth deals unambiguously with conversion, a Moabite woman giving rise to a lineage ending in King David, ancestor of all the rightful kings of the Jews. Conversion hasn't been encouraged since at least Talmudic times, however; in fact, it's been discouraged, at least in principle. Quite understandable, since Jews have been barely tolerated for many centuries, and attempting to convert the local Christians would have been an incredibly bad idea.

But still, many gentiles do convert to the various brands of Judaism even today. My mother is a convert to Orthodox Judaism, converted by a rabbi whose legitimacy few would question, and that makes me every bit as much a Jew as anyone.

Israel is interesting only as long as there's oil in the Middle East. [etc.]

But what about the 2% of Americans who are Jewish, who are wealthy and powerful far out of proportion to their number? And what about the substantial support among fundamentalist Christians for their Jewish brethren in the Holy Land? And what about international factionalization, with Israel one of the few nations willing to endorse us on most things (for what it's worth)? I don't think it's as simple as a realpolitik analysis would suggest, despite your valiant attempts to make it look rational. We have no material reason to support a tiny state with little to offer us when that angers so many.

If the Americans cease to support Israel today two things can happen:
a) the Arabs attack and Israel responds with the nuclear arsenal, in which case the Middle East oilfields become unusable;
b) the Arabs attack, overrun Israel before it has the chance to use the nuclear arsenal (highly unlikely) and then the United States has no legitimate reason to intervene in the area anymore.

First of all, even if we cut off support to Israel, it still has a much more advanced and dedicated military than the Arabs. Second of all, even if we stopped supporting them, in the event of an actual attack we'd probably send in troops to help out, as (in the current political climate) some other nations probably would as well, dislike Israel though they may. Third, all but a couple of the Arab rulers would be interested in risking a nuke.

I think the Arabs recognize that overt military attacks are fruitless, and are content with attacking through proxies like Hamas and Hezbollah. But if they aren't, again, we can just intervene then and only then, in plenty of time to stop anything bad from happening.

The EU being the dominant economic entity in the area and one which is rather sympathetic to the Arabs gets to control the oil of the Middle East. This means that in the not-so-distant future when the oil becomes really scarce the Americans might not get any.

The oil will go to whoever pays the most, simple as that. They might charge us slightly higher prices, granted, but the logic that we support Israel so that the Arabs like us strikes me as contorted.

As long as the Israelis think they are entitled to that land because of that being the land of their ancestors

As far as I'm aware, most do not. A minority certainly believe they're entitled to it because God promised it to them, but the fact that God only promised it to Jacob's descendants is generally ignored.

[OG Grenadier]

I hate extremists. I don't care if they are socio-political or religious. Kill em all.

[Princeps]

I hate extremists. I don't care if they are socio-political or religious. Kill em all.

Isn't that little extreme?

[Rush Limbaugh]

Well, technically speaking most of the Israelis are the descendents of the Jews originally from Central and Eastern Europe, which means their ancestors were Khazars (Turcik population which convertd to Judaism, living on a territory representing today's south of Russia and Ukraine). As such, most of the Israelis of today have nothing to do with Palestine other than the fact they were born there.

So this makes them pigs and gives them the right to ethinicly cleanse all Jews from the earth? I saw no disctiction of where tye came from. Also there was no mass conversion anywhere I know of to Judaism. If your mothers a Jew then you are a Jew. You just cant decide to bevome one. There is a process you must go through. Id venture most of these Jews can trace their heritage back to Israel.

The only reason I brought the Khazars into the discussion was to explain why the educated Palestinians do not consider the Israelis have much of a moral and/or historical right to own a country there. Hence the Palestinian rethoric that land does not belong to the Jews of today which are mostly the descendents of the Khazars.

Except thats not the reason its their land. Its theirs because the UN gave it to them and they can defend its borders. All this whos land was it crap is irrelevant.

In the same time it's worth remarking that an important part of Israel's territory was bought from the Arabs and the Jewish legal and illegal immigrants first settled there. The Arab leaders became worried about the change in the ethnic structure of Palestina's population, tried to discourage the Jewish settlers and their violent actions were the start of the conflict. Contrary to what the Palestinian propaganda says, the Jews did not start by stealing the Arab land but by buying it from willing Arab owners. The stealing/ethnic cleansing was the result of the Jews winning the war.

Exactly.

[Dromikaites]

Also there was no mass conversion anywhere I know of to Judaism.

All you need to do is to google up "khazar" and you'll see there was at least one mass-conversion to Judaism.

If your mothers a Jew then you are a Jew. You just cant decide to bevome one.

Actually anyone can become a Jew - it's a ritual the convert needs to go through, just like converting to Christianity or Islam.

There is a process you must go through. Id venture most of these Jews can trace their heritage back to Israel.

If they are from Central or Eastern Europe (which most of them are) then at best we can say the jury is still out (see Syron's post about a DNA study which is rather disputed).

Except thats not the reason its their land. Its theirs because the UN gave it to them and they can defend its borders.

It's theirs because the Jews made the majority of the population there at the time UN awarded them that land. From 1918 onwards (actually since the Versailles treaty) the practice in international law is the population inhabiting a territory decides to whom that territory belongs to. So it was not an UN decision out of the blue but one based on the real ethnic situation there.

The "defending the borders" part is arguable. East Timor was actually not able to defend its borders but the international community forced Indonesia to let it regain its independence. So the right to be independent is on thing, how a state becomes and [u]maintains[/] its independence is another thing. Not being able to pereserve its indpendence doesn't cancel the right of a state to exists. WW2 is the best example of states which disappeared in 1940 only to regain their independence some 5 to 46 years later.

All this whos land was it crap is irrelevant.

Up to a point yes, it is irrelevant. It is irrelevant for practical reasons but quite relevant for setting up political agendas. For instance if the estimated rate of growth of the Spanish-speaking minority in US is correct then I might be still alive when the descendents of the Mexicans would be in a position to decide about fixing the border between US and Mexico either to where it belongs (= where it was before Texas and the rest of the states were stolen from Mexico) or even further deeper into the current US territory (as sort of an "interest" paid for the "loan").

[wilpuri]

So this makes them pigs and gives them the right to ethinicly cleanse all Jews from the earth? I saw no disctiction of where tye came from. Also there was no mass conversion anywhere I know of to Judaism. If your mothers a Jew then you are a Jew. You just cant decide to bevome one. There is a process you must go through. Id venture most of these Jews can trace their heritage back to Israel.

Actually, the Khazars did convert en masse.

[MasterAdnin]

All I can say is eeewww!!! That's pretty gross, sick idiot, he'll get aids pretty soon....

Adnan

[TheKwas]

The majority on both sides agree to a 2-state proposal with a common capital of Jerusalem.

It is complete riddles to me why this is still such a major issue. Hamas, using their own language, have agreed to a peaceful co-existance with Israel and are open to talks. Get a task force togeather and work out the details.