Iran criticizes Saudi Arabia over hajj stampede deaths outside Mecca

[Roma_Victrix]

Prince Salman convoy triggered Hajj stampede: Report

Mind you, the source is PressTV, a state-owned Iranian media outlet, so take this report with a small grain of salt when it says the arrival of Prince Salman's convoy and the consequential blocking of certain streets were the ultimate causes of this disaster. The Lebanese Daily is also cited. All that being said, out of the 717 people killed (Iran insists that number is actually 1,300), apparently 125 of them were Iranian nationals. That has led to statements not only by Iran's Deputy Foreign Minister for Arab and African Affairs Hossein Amir-Abdollahian, but also the Ayatollah himself (quoted in the article).

What do you guys think about this? Is it too early into the investigation to be making judgments like this? Can a Saudi-led investigation really be trusted when a Saudi prince was perhaps somewhat culpable in this tumultuous tragedy? Is it really no one individual person's fault for a human stampede, with no one person to pin blame on (especially in a legally binding way in a court of law)? Even if the Saudis had blocked some streets due to the arrival of a prince and his convoy, isn't that standard protocol and a guiltless crime, even if it was inconsiderate to the crowd of people in the area who required reliable routes in and out of Mina? Could they have honestly anticipated the crowd's reaction would have been to panic? And finally, it appears that Iran is already turning this issue into a political football, but that's to be expected given their heated rivalry with Saudi Arabia. The Iranian government's public mourning is the correct response, certainly, but is their backlash and heavy criticism of Saudi authorities and ruling establishment appropriate given that all the facts have yet to be gathered? I suppose any excuse to criticize the Saudis is a good one.

[bigdaddy1204]

I think this tragedy reflects the deep social disease at the heart of the Saudi kingdom. They have systematically demolished nearly all the historic sites of early Islamic history, including a 7th century mosque used by Muhammad, the house of Muhammad's wife, the well where Muhammad spent a night and many other places. They desecrated the grave of the prophet's mother Amina, destroying it with a petrol fire. They have bulldozed these sites, and turned Mecca into a disneyland full of McDonalds, shopping arcades, jewellery stores, luxury hotels and car parks. Their only concern is to get as much money out of the pilgrims as possible.

It is within this context that the tragedy has happened. They don't take proper care of anything, they are hypocrites and they only care about expensive cars and luxuries. All of this while claiming to follow Islam. There is nothing - NOTHING - Islamic about Saudi Arabia. Their government and their clerics are fitna. It is a tragedy that these Wahhabists are in control. Their diseased ideology needs to be combated robustly by proper education, which will reject utterly their twisted, distorted vision of society.

These poor people who died are victims of an evil money-making scheme which runs directly contrary to everything that Muhammad stood for. I feel sorry about them, and horrified that so many innocent lives could be lost.

[Derpy Hooves]

I think this tragedy reflects the deep social disease at the heart of the Saudi kingdom. They have systematically demolished nearly all the historic sites of early Islamic history, including a 7th century mosque used by Muhammad, the house of Muhammad's wife, the well where Muhammad spent a night and many other places. They desecrated the grave of the prophet's mother Amina, destroying it with a petrol fire. They have bulldozed these sites, and turned Mecca into a disneyland full of McDonalds, shopping arcades, jewellery stores, luxury hotels and car parks. Their only concern is to get as much money out of the pilgrims as possible.

It is within this context that the tragedy has happened. They don't take proper care of anything, they are hypocrites and they only care about expensive cars and luxuries. All of this while claiming to follow Islam. There is nothing - NOTHING - Islamic about Saudi Arabia. Their government and their clerics are fitna. It is a tragedy that these Wahhabists are in control. Their diseased ideology needs to be combated robustly by proper education, which will reject utterly their twisted, distorted vision of society.

These poor people who died are victims of an evil money-making scheme which runs directly contrary to everything that Muhammad stood for. I feel sorry about them, and horrified that so many innocent lives could be lost.

That's what they did to Mecca? Then why does it still look like a piece of ? Seriously, take a look at the city. It looks like nothing special for a holy city. Then take a look at Jerusalem, Istanbul, and Rome. There is not a single piece of greenery in Mecca. It looks so depressing.

[Caligula's_Horse]

That's what they did to Mecca? Then why does it still look like a piece of ? Seriously, take a look at the city. It looks like nothing special for a holy city. Then take a look at Jerusalem, Istanbul, and Rome. There is not a single piece of greenery in Mecca. It looks so depressing.

Your examples' states has nothing to do with it being a holy city, and everything to do with being a major city in a developed nation. Rome used to be a piss pot too in the middle ages (even by the standards of the day), despite being more revered at the time, not less. And Istanbul isn't even holy to the people who own it for the past 500 years or so.
Mecca isn't a nice place to visit because Saudi Arabia isn't a nice place to visit; the country runs on corruption, nepotism and religious zealotry. Being a holy city actually makes things worse, not better, because everything has to be designed to accommodate a completely unreasonable amount of visitors on a regular basis, with much too little room to work with.

Besides, I happen to spend a lot of time in Jerusalem, and some parts of the city are abysmal. The modern and tourist trap sections are nice enough, but the city is also home to an occupied eastern half and Jewish orthodox slums that don't receive as much attention but are in some ways actually worse. Being holy is again a detriment rather then an advantage, because being fought over is bad for development. The Al-Aqsa mosque in particular, is a regular posting for riot police.

Basically, divinity is overrated. Practical concerns and petty politics dictate how the world is actually run, regardless of what religion you hail from.

[Rex Somnorum]

Your examples' states has nothing to do with it being a holy city, and everything to do with being a major city in a developed nation. Rome used to be a piss pot too in the middle ages (even by the standards of the day), despite being more revered at the time, not less. And Istanbul isn't even holy to the people who own it for the past 500 years or so.
Mecca isn't a nice place to visit because Saudi Arabia isn't a nice place to visit; the country runs on corruption, nepotism and religious zealotry. Being a holy city actually makes things worse, not better, because everything has to be designed to accommodate a completely unreasonable amount of visitors on a regular basis, with much too little room to work with.

Besides, I happen to spend a lot of time in Jerusalem, and some parts of the city are abysmal. The modern and tourist trap sections are nice enough, but the city is also home to an occupied eastern half and Jewish orthodox slums that don't receive as much attention but are in some ways actually worse. Being holy is again a detriment rather then an advantage, because being fought over is bad for development. The Al-Aqsa mosque in particular, is a regular posting for riot police.

Basically, divinity is overrated. Practical concerns and petty politics dictate how the world is actually run, regardless of what religion you hail from.

I think that his point is that even the ugly bits of Jerusalem are prettier than Mecca. Not to mention the Saudis have bulldozed countless historically and culturally significant sites to build hotels, shopping malls and parking lots.

[Roma_Victrix]

I think that his point is that even the ugly bits of Jerusalem are prettier than Mecca. Not to mention the Saudis have bulldozed countless historically and culturally significant sites to build hotels, shopping malls and parking lots.

I find a lot of modern architecture to lack traditional, old-timey charm, for starters. A mixture of the two is perfectly fine in the same confined urban space. Nearly every modern city is like that. The Saudis have gone ballistic and destroyed their own heritage due to newer ideological strains of late (i.e. Wahhabism) that preach puritanical nonsense about blasphemies that should have otherwise been considered totally protected UNESCO World Heritage sites. When the Saudis destroyed that medieval Ottoman fortress to make way for a stupid Disney-looking high rise hotel, in my mind they weren't doing anything sacred. They basically desecrated a priceless historical site to plaster over it with modern junk. The same goes with all the tombs they destroyed. They're really no different than ISIS in regards to the destruction of artifacts and their own antiquities. It's madness and religious extremism gone wild, just like ISIL's recent destruction of Palmyra, Hatra, Ninevah, etc.

[sumskilz]

I think that his point is that even the ugly bits of Jerusalem are prettier than Mecca.

Okay, but the picture alone doesn't capture the whole experience. Jerusalem smells like hot garbage and cat urine most of the year. Plenty of nicer cities in the Levant. I'm not welcome in Mecca though, so I can't compare.

[Caligula's_Horse]

If a Saudi as much as takes a deep breath, the Iranians will use it as an excuse to criticize their regime. Nothing surprising there.
While I bare no love for the Saudis, I'm not sure I'd call it their fault either. This sort of disaster is pretty much inevitable when you cram so many people into such small a space, no matter what you do. I understand the Saudis have worked to minimize the risks as much as they can, but there's only so much to be done with such a logistical nightmare.

I don't think the original founders of the Hajj tradition ever anticipated the world's Muslim population to hit the one billion mark, or that so many of them could afford to travel to Mecca on such a semi-regular basis. I guess that's what happens when you try to apply a 1500 year old directive to the modern day.

[Abdülmecid I]

The implication that the heir apparent and son of the Saudi king is responsible for the disaster was firstly reported by Ad-Diyar, a Lebanese newspaper.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.addiyar.com/article/10443...9-%D9%81%D9%8A

The wikipedia article is not very clear. Looks like a Saudi prince is one her shareholders, but it also mentions her pro-Assad stance. Perhaps, someone more knowledgeable will know how reliable Ad-Diyar is.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad-Diyar

Anyway, obviously Iran is exploiting the disaster for political purposes, but if the story is proven true, then I can't judge them for being mad at the Saudis. Hundreds of people dying because the Saudi royalty thinks that they should be accompanied by hundreds of armed men and vehicles is a bit infuriating.

I don't think the original founders of the Hajj tradition ever anticipated the world's Muslim population to hit the one billion mark, or that so many of them could afford to travel to Mecca on such a semi-regular basis. I guess that's what happens when you try to apply a 1500 year old directive to the modern day.

Mohammad's directive was more reasonable when muslims existed only in the western coast of the Arabian penninsula and the situation has definitely improved, since the Ottoman times, when the Berber nomads forced thousands of pilgrims to die by lack of water, if they haven't been bribed enough, but I'm not very satisfied by the saudi government. It's an extremely wealthy state, supposedly very-experienced on the issue and the world has progressed since the tmes of the Sharifate of Mecca.

[Condottiere 40K]

You might wake up one morning and find Sodom and Gomorrah, where visitors get fleeced.

[Sphere]

But there is the silver vagina. Can't beat that.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[mrmouth]

How do 700+ human beings die from a ing stampede in the 21st century?

[Roma_Victrix]

How do 700+ human beings die from a ing stampede in the 21st century?

That's assuming Saudi Arabia exists in the 21st century, and is not a place out of time in the 8th or 9th.

[Stario]

How do 700+ human beings die from a ing stampede in the 21st century?

Fanatics.

From my personal experience moslems are one of the most difficult individuals to deal with. You can have two individuals, even from the same country; ie two Iraqi individuals- one christian one moslem and 10/10 times the christian is so much easier to deal with/has more EQ.

[Roma_Victrix]

So they had this, and a crane falling on them before (on 9 11, rather significant date, given how Saudis were the ones who contributed a lot to the attacks in 2001). I think when ISIS destroyed those old ruins, muslims did disturb some old and powerful Gods, or maybe even Demons, and now they are after all of them. At least I hope that's the case.

LOL. Gilgamesh has awoken from his ancient slumber to exact revenge.

Fanatics.

From my personal experience moslems are one of the most difficult individuals to deal with. You can have two individuals, even from the same country; ie two Iraqi individuals- one christian one moslem and 10/10 times the christian is so much easier to deal with/has more EQ.

I think you mean IQ.

[Stario]

I think you mean IQ.

No i meant precisely as i said- EQ.

[Cyclops]

No i meant precisely as i said- EQ.

Sounds like a pretty disgusting bit of bigotry on your part, or maybe you just have bad luck? Just had a look at your earlier post, are you blaming the people who died for their own deaths?

I know Muslims in Australia who are in business which depend on factors like EQ and they are good at it.

One family I know are away on holidays, I really hope they didn't go on the Haj to be caught up in this terrible event. I have no respect for the Saudi regime, they seem to be connected to every bad thing about Islam: they literally give Muslims a bad name.

[Heathen Hammer]

So they had this, and a crane falling on them before (on 9 11, rather significant date, given how Saudis were the ones who contributed a lot to the attacks in 2001). I think when ISIS destroyed those old ruins, muslims did disturb some old and powerful Gods, or maybe even Demons, and now they are after all of them. At least I hope that's the case.

[Roma_Victrix]

Ah! I see. Emotional intelligence. Gotcha.

[bigdaddy1204]

Dunno, my wife wants to go to Mecca at some point but I'm not exactly jumping at the idea of it. I feel that any spiritual value it might have had won't be present, due to overcrowding and the awfulness of the government and the conservative society. It (Saudi Arabia) is not my kind of Islam at all, I think it's all a massive exercise in hypocrisy. It seems to me that if one really wants to get close to Muhammad, seeking out a quiet spot, such as a mountain in the wilderness (as Muhammad did, and Jesus before him) would be a better way to do it.

But maybe I'm judging too much, perhaps it wouldn't be as bad as I imagine.

Sounds like a pretty disgusting bit of bigotry on your part, or maybe you just have bad luck? Just had a look at your earlier post, are you blaming the people who died for their own deaths?

I know Muslims in Australia who are in business which depend on factors like EQ and they are good at it.

One family I know are away on holidays, I really hope they didn't go on the Haj to be caught up in this terrible event. I have no respect for the Saudi regime, they seem to be connected to every bad thing about Islam: they literally give Muslims a bad name.

Completely agree with this post, thanks for sharing. I hope your friends made it back safely.