Culture Mechanics and Cultural Shift in Ancient Empires

[Alfonzo over Innsmouths]

Hey All

I was considering how the culture system worked in Rome 2, and how you guys were going to implement it in Attila, when a thought struck me. While I was fiddling around with the minor religions building chain, I figured out you could do religion specific units and so on by making the buildings that recruit them religion specific. So, if I wanted to make a Cthulhu Fanatic unit, I'd make it recruitable from a building that is Minor Religions specific, but then I'd have to make a copy of this unit for each faction. But then I thought if religion is going to be replaced with culture...does that mean you can get cultural shift in the same way factions convert to different religions?

And could we apply this to entire building trees?.

The idea is that each faction has a Main Culture (Celtic, German, Iberian, Punic, Latin, Greek, Balkan, Egyptian, Eastern, Nomad, etc.). This dictates city building (Towns, cities), Farming, docks, grey industry / tax buildings / road buildings, as well as what sort of Agents you can recruit. Then they have a Secondary Culture, which works like a religion and grants bonuses. It ALSO allows access to military, red industry, sanitation and religious buildings. For Yellow buildings, perhaps a mix, with some basic ones being Main culture specific (Markets, etc.) and others Secondary culture specific (Arenas, Taverns, Palaces, etc.). Because the military buildings limit recruitment, you could make 'culture specific' rosters for each Main Culture (Or for each faction). I know this sounds ridiculously complicated and a lot of hard work, and is done without understanding how Culture is going to be done in Ancient Empires, but I reckon it could give some exciting pathways into speculative history.

For instance: I am Iceni. I build Celtic buildings, I recruit celtic troops, I worship Celtic gods. Rome conquers Gaul and makes it Roman. I don't like that, and invade Gaul and conquer it. Now I have a bunch of Roman provinces that I have to wait to culturalize...or, I could convert my culture to Roman. In doing so I gain access to some Romanized Barbarian buildings (Sanitation buildings, military barracks, etc.) but lose access to Celtic barbarian buildings, I worship Roman gods (Have to replace Celtic influence buildings with Roman ones) and I while I can recruit my Celtic troops without a military building, they're pretty bad. To make up for this, in military buildings you can recruit 'Romanized' units. However, I am still a barbarian - my Romanized troops aren't as good as Roman core troops, but I have access to elite barbarian units etc., I still recruit druids and so on.

Another example: Pontus. It starts the game as an Eastern Faction, that has already shifted to Greek. They gain access to hoplites, theurophoroi and pikes, but lose out on Eastern-Specific units and buildings. They could conquer the Black Sea, and end up in contact with Nomads. They culture shift, so instead of being able to build / recruit Greek, they instead build / recruit Nomad style (horse Archers, Lancers, etc.).

So by late game you could end up with Roman Spartans fighting Balkanized Macedonians, while Iberian Carthaginieans withstand a Germanic Iceni, all the while a Nomad Bactria fights for dominance against a Hellenic Armenia. This could open up new playstyles for players as well as add a bit of historical realism as if Carthage really got rolled into Iberia, and were stuck there, then they'd probably end up depending on Iberian-style units, end up more Iberian in make up, etc. Alternatively they could stick with Punic culture, and reap the benefits and maluses thereof.

[ABH2]

Well, to start with, there's no actual mechanic to shift a faction's religion. I mean, I could give any group access to whatever religion buildings I wanted, but the faction's actual religion is going to stay the same. As would its culture and subculture. Those are fixed and assigned to the actual faction. This means that building a temple that gives other religions would always be negative and give you a public order hit. I haven't explored the new DLC for Attila that much and it does seem as if CA have given factions a temple line with multiple religions, but I don't think it's really changed.

The ability of creating dynamic choice isn't a bad one, but pulling it off is another matter. In this post, there's some things that seem to reflect general confusion over how this is all done in the DB. Buildings are always assigned by either the culture, subculture, and faction. Religions are their own thing. They had little influence in Rome 2, but in Attila now get used to tweak CAI behavior. Religions are essentially what the player sees in the campaign for their 'culture.' Its the little symbol that appears in the diplomacy screen, and what influence your buildings give. Buildings and units aren't tied to it, though (there is a religion requirement column in I think both main_units and building_levels, though I'm fairly certain they don't work).

So, each religion basically has to have its own building temple line the way the effect that gives cultural influence is set-up. I actually worked around this, though, in Rome 2 for DeI by making it convert to state religion. But buildings aren't actually assigned based on religion.

Then personally, I think a big part of the goal is to focus our factions as unique to play as is possible. And we consider representing that people as accurately as possible part of that. Because when you reflect who these people are as best as you can with the game mechanics, I think that naturally makes for a more interesting experience. Giving the player the path to change to different recruitment options sounds interesting at a glance (ignoring the fact that it would be far too much work for any mod team), but it's not how things actually operated. The player already gets almost god-like control over the state in this game to where I don't think increasing it is a goal I'd agree with. Very few of the people on the campaign map of this game were providing equipment to their soldiers to begin with. Some exercised some control through law and regulation. In terms of barbs, I'm skeptical that any chieftain would have had this sort of power and resources. Changing religion also isn't typically as simple as issuing a decree.

[Alfonzo over Innsmouths]

ABH2
Well, to start with, there's no actual mechanic to shift a faction's religion.

There is. In Attila migrating hordes and rebel factions tend to do it all the time. It depends on how much of a certain religion is in the region they settle in / pop up in. Smaller factions can actually convert to your religion if you dump enough of it into their provinces. You can do it in the Summary screen if the religion you want to switch to is above 35% of your total Empire's population (Hence why smaller factions tend to change religions more easily). It's just below the 'Start Migration' button.

ABH2
...I mean, I could give any group access to whatever religion buildings I wanted, but the faction's actual religion is going to stay the same. As would its culture and subculture. Those are fixed and assigned to the actual faction....In this post, there's some things that seem to reflect general confusion over how this is all done in the DB. Buildings are always assigned by either the culture, subculture, and faction. Religions are their own thing. They had little influence in Rome 2, but in Attila now get used to tweak CAI behaviour.

I'm not saying you can build religious buildings of other cultures, that's not what I was proposing. I'm saying you can convert to another religion ('culture') if your own is small in comparison to that other culture. What I was proposing was gutting out most of the Sub-Culture buildings and transporting it to super trees that restrict based on religion.

ABH2
Religions are essentially what the player sees in the campaign for their 'culture.'... Buildings and units aren't tied to it, though (there is a religion requirement column in I think both main_units and building_levels, though I'm fairly certain they don't work).

The building_levels one does work (in addition to having to make new building supertrees, trees and subtrees that are religion specific), as I have made a personal mini-mod that enables minor-religion buildings, but only if your faction is minor religions. It KIND of works - I'm not sure how to properly do icons and enable the AI to build it properly, but it was more of an experiment to see if I could make a Cthulhu Temple. Then it'd just be a case of having those religion restricted buildings used to recruit said units.

AMH2
So, each religion basically has to have its own building temple line the way the effect that gives cultural influence is set-up. I actually worked around this, though, in Rome 2 for DeI by making it convert to state religion.

That's actually a pretty good work around.

AMH2
I think a big part of the goal is to focus our factions as unique to play as is possible. And we consider representing that people as accurately as possible part of that...(ignoring the fact that it would be far too much work for any mod team)...Some exercised some control through law and regulation. In terms of barbs, I'm skeptical that any chieftain would have had this sort of power and resources. Changing religion also isn't typically as simple as issuing a decree.

This actually makes the most sense as to why this wouldn't work in Ancient Empires, particularly if you are focusing on a historical simulator. The 'huge amount of work' thing I also understand is a huge drawback to this possible idea. Additionally, I like to think that this 'culture shift' reflects less a decree by the chieftain, and more an acknowledgement that most of your empire is now run by / is made up of people who simply aren't your culture. For instance, the Ptolemy's adopted Egyptian style dress and culture, despite originally being Greek. So instead of a Carthage one day deciding he's Iberian and not Cartheginian, it's more over time he adopts more and more Iberian culture, before he suddenly realizes he's more Iberian than Punic. However, that doesn't mean that this might not actually happen when Ancient Empires is released. You may have to find a way to 'fix' the religion of factions so they can't change, otherwise you're going to end up with factions that convert to one of the starting cultures (Like Hellenic Hegemon or what have you).

[ABH2]

Yes the religion block is working in building_levels.

I think in some respects, a few ideas can be worked in here. In terms of say Egypt, it would provide a sensible mechanic for showing either degradation of the Egyptian military or maintaining traditional elements. Though I'm not sure it's perfectly suited. I'll have to give it some more thought on how to make it sensible.

Right now how recruitment works - we are already doing a lot of work with unique settlement lines. As in, each region has its own building chain with variants for cultures and the starting owning faction. So, this allows for a high degree of customization based on region. Recruitment is also done through these lines as we plan it as opposed to a unique barracks line.

[sourpis]

I just saw the video of havoc, really professional job bravo to all you guys. I have a question, I hope not to be misunderstood. Obviously I am Greek to say first that I know that is just a game, but I noticed that in the Hellenistic factions existed misunderstanding beside religious-culture. (Macedonian and Hellenistic) I would like to ask if in the ancient empires mod there are different definitions among the Hellenistic factions. Given the historical truth [ that there was not differentiation ] and by extension that in rome 2 there was no distinction between them.Thank you everyone for your effort! knowing that already do this out of love for the game and not paying for it. I would add that my question is purely within the game and that just want to know what formal or informal your position on that. thank you very much.

[Petellius]

Not for now, we may look into it more in the future, the cultures in AE come the first release are not fully finished and basic for now.

[sourpis]

forgive my fault not correct wording my question. a differentiation between the Hellenistic factions for example I saw to have next to religion the Achaean League Hellenistic and next to the Bactrian Macedonian. It has to do that it is not ready the mod. or you distinguish them deliberately as something different (i hope you not)! Thanks to the first answer but my English is not the best and as i requested from you to my reprint to understand, I have to say on that in relation to some errors that may have occurred from side Havoc in video with the presentation of the campaign map. to all my friends Greeks and Orientals or any other language - country that has some objections as much reference the names in the game is very unfair to ask a man who essentially is not historically or lecturer GREEK, to pronounce or even writes the names as we can. also the points on the map is very little reference at least as much as the Greek area. and it is difficult to be exact. I'm sure if they could would have added even Sparta even if then it was no longer the great military power.thank you very much.

[Petellius]

Yeah the map is very restrictive and yes its because that part of the mod isnt finished, we'll likely redo it all after initial release when we have more time to do so. Go look at the Rome 2 version of AE if you wish to see our culture mechanics in their full

[sourpis]

Yeah the map is very restrictive and yes its because that part of the mod isnt finished, we'll likely redo it all after initial release when we have more time to do so. Go look at the Rome 2 version of AE if you wish to see our culture mechanics in their full

Thanks for the answer I know for AE in rome 2 i am playing now is something like a preparation for me for the AE. I essentially jumping to conclusion my mistake. the difference that I thought I saw was between hellenic and Hellenistic and I understand that it refers to the Hellenistic period that there was a date that plays the game.

[sourpis]

My friends thank you for giving us access to the mod even in this early form, so that we can help in our way. Many of us follow the progress of the game from the beginning and we have identified, because when we saw the attila we have said this so had to be rome 2.With all due respect to your job I want to give my opinion on some topics that I like and some that I think it is wrong. Very likely because we are in a trial form. But i have to say because the affect me to have fun with all other. The hellenic-hellinistic kingdoms were fundamentally hellenic! So it is not correct to refer about the culture of them as makedonian culture and that's because it is like telling me that iam English and my culture is London or If you prefer the Spartans have Spartan culture,the Athenians have Athenian culture and so on.It is proved that those kingdoms Makedonian,Ptolemy,Pergamos etc were hellenic . It will be best to not make any distinction between the hellenic factions.