TWC Tag Team Tournament TATW Semi Final

[Egyptian_Viking]

That can't be legal? I only besieged the settlement knowing that this rule was in place, preventing you from sallying out. If I'd known this was possible, I would never risk such a siege, especially seeing how this rule is phrased.

As far as I know it is perfectly legal. It seems to be in every other TATW hotseats I play in.
The rule is there to make it even since the game engine is bullying players coming later in the turn order. But by playing as I did I avoided any problems with the game engine.

I understand you would never besiege knowing this, but you have to understand that I would never leave my 2 units out in the open the previous turn if I wasn't certain I could do this.

[Adanedhel]

If that were the case, it should be stated in the rules because to me the rule is pretty explicit - no sallying out even if there are units that were not defeated last turn.

[Egyptian_Viking]

If that were the case, it should be stated in the rules because to me the rule is pretty explicit - no sallying out even if there are units that were not defeated last turn.

Yup the rule should be rewritten in another way. It can be very confusing. I'm sure this is allowed though. If it is not, however, I still kind of never broke this rule since:
"Units defeated by a player coming after you in the turn order may not move or attack on your subsequent turn" And they never did move.
"...even if there are units inside the settlement which were not defeated" I only had units that were not defeated when attacking. The other 2 were disbanded.
"This is because the game engine prevents the sally where the defeated army comes later in the turn order" Exactly and since I have no defeated armies left the game engine allows me to make the attack and the rule does no longer apply.

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

This rule is in order to prevent unrightful sallying by a player that comes first in turn order. Seeing as Isengard is last in turn order, there can be no discussion at all if this is allowed or not. Because Isengard is last in turn order, the game engine will prevent Isengard from sallying if it is not allowed.

Looking at this battle specifically, I agree that Egyptian didn't violate any rules. It is a very small thing to overlook, but something you should keep in mind Adanedhel. If Isengard disbands the defeated units, he is allowed to sally (and so would anyone be in such a situation). However, if you besieged him while one of his generals was defeated, Ugluk or Saruman, then Isengard would not be able to sally (simply because the game engine wouldn't allow him to). I'm sure that the game engine wouldn't allow Egyptian to sally if he doesn't disband the defeated units.

Hence, a small thing to overlook, but all in line with the rules.

[Dux]

This rule is in order to prevent unrightful sallying by a player that comes first in turn order. Seeing as Isengard is last in turn order, there can be no discussion at all if this is allowed or not. Because Isengard is last in turn order, the game engine will prevent Isengard from sallying if it is not allowed.

Looking at this battle specifically, I agree that Egyptian didn't violate any rules. It is a very small thing to overlook, but something you should keep in mind Adanedhel. If Isengard disbands the defeated units, he is allowed to sally (and so would anyone be in such a situation). However, if you besieged him while one of his generals was defeated, Ugluk or Saruman, then Isengard would not be able to sally (simply because the game engine wouldn't allow him to). I'm sure that the game engine wouldn't allow Egyptian to sally if he doesn't disband the defeated units.

Hence, a small thing to overlook, but all in line with the rules.

I couldn't explain it better myself.

This is allowed. I have seen it happen before, once against me. You are only certain a settlement can't sally if you defeated a general and he retreated inside the settlement. Now, the engine allows it, and so do the rules.

[Adanedhel]

It's not exactly a small thing to remember if you do not even suspect something like this to happen. This was a huge blow to me and the only reason I lost is because of the phrasing of one rule. That's why I'm a bit frustrated, I just hate losing like this. I'd be perfectly fine if I had made a mistake during play, but like this...

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

I'm sorry you feel that way Adanedhel, but really it has nothing to do with the phrasing of the rule. If you read carefully, it clearly states "Units defeated by a player coming after you in the turn order may not move or attack on your subsequent turn" and you are not a player that comes after Egyptian in the turn order. So I'm afraid you misread the rule, because this rule is of no meaning in this case.

[joerock22]

Agree with everything stated about this being legal. As Chieftain stated, the rule doesn't even apply to Isengard as Isengard is last in the turn order. Playtesting or asking the admin beforehand would have alerted the player to this possibility.

[Adanedhel]

Right...Too bad I had to learn this in this hotseat. I'll play my turn sometime tomorrow.

Edit: waiting for an answer from Dux about a small thing (turn basically ready)

I hate to slow this thing down. I just need a confirmation on something. Although Dux is the authority here and would rather here it from him, maybe you guys know the answer. Perhaps it's something obvious. Just go to Dux profile page.

[joerock22]

Your question:

Tag question: can I move around a defeated general, but still ending his turn in the same spot as before? The only purpose of this would be to improve some traits. And a follow up question: is moving a defeated general in order to pass along a retinue allowed (still ending his turn in the same spot as before)?

My opinion is no, solely because a player going after you in the turn order would be prevented from moving the defeated general even one square by the game engine. I believe ancillaries can still be transferred to/from defeated generals, but no movement is allowed. Thus, to make sure the playing field is even, I don't think this should be allowed.

+rep though for being honest and asking before doing this.

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

Hmm, this is an interesting question. Definitely no on the question if you can move around to transfer ancillaries. But the first question.... I would like to know if a general that is defeated and can not move by the game engine is seen as 'used all MP', so that it has a chance on a MP increasing trait. If that is the case, I would say yes, that is allowed to do, because the faction that can move by the game engine and not by the rules risks getting a negative MP penalty, for not using one bit of MP.

[Adanedhel]

Chieftain touched upon something I forgot to mention. If I don't use up some movement points I may lose my MP traits, while a faction that is later in the turn order would not since all his MP are spent (maybe that even counts into fulfilling the requirement to improve say the Energetic or Logistical traits). So, I guess I need to wait for Dux. I'll send him a PM this time.

[Dux]

Hmm, interesting. I would say a general is never allowed to move if defeated, but I don't know if the theory about losing movement traits is true. It is interesting to test that.

For the moment, let say it is allowed to move him around a bit to prevent him from losing movement points, as long as he ends in the same position. Definitely not allowed to move to transfer ancillaries though.

[Adanedhel]

I'll need to ask you guys for a bit more patience. I've got to put some finishing touches to my turn. I will have it done first thing in the morning.

[Egyptian_Viking]

I have a bad feeling about this... Please hurry! this is torture

[Adanedhel]

Rhun: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...S13MTE3UEhMX1E

Isengard spared for one more turn.

[General Dragon.]

Gondor is up!
https://www.sendspace.com/file/sjeqgy

[joerock22]

For some time now, Grishnakh has been sneaking through the woods in a clumsy orcish attempt at subtlety. Now he has crept too close, and Gondor shall tolerate his presence no more. Boromir advances north and soundly defeats the orc army. Casualties are over 4:1 in favor of Gondor.

Harad:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...ew?usp=sharing

Screenshot:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...ew?usp=sharing

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

Mordor

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

Oh, btw, I have a question that is relevant for strategy in this HS. I wonder if we are actually going to stop the HS once 21 turns are finished and then determine the winner on whatever happened? As small as the battles were? Or are we going to continue this HS beyond turn 21 until 1 team has clearly gained advantage or the other 2 teams recognize the victory of 1 team?

[Dux]

Stop at 21 and determine the winner. This forces you to be aggresive.