TWC Tag Team Tournament TATW Semi Final

**Adanedhel** · January 21, 2016, 03:09 AM

I have more troops than you Joe, and have more elite units in my stacks counting in Eorling Axemen, which I would argue, are better than your Gondor Militia. I would divide Theodred's awesome movement range between two generals giving them both at least 30%, while you have 0. You already had a go at my stacks and were far from defeating them, I know, I tested that. The extra units you bribed wouldn't make a difference. Don't forget that I had two 7 star generals and you only Imrahil (2*). So I would be moving both my stacks together pushing you back all the way to Minas Tirith, where a new frontline would be created. All the regions on the way would probably be mine, or at least the ones nearer to the mountains.

After just conquering Isengard, I was gaining money again, so would recruit more units to counter any offensive from Aldburg. I could recruit units even this turn (elite units), but it wouldn't make any difference. I also had at least a half stack near Isengard, which I didn't move because they wouldn't make it to Erech in time or anywhere else. I would attack your western provinces or take all the rebel settlements in the area.

Of course, having a way better economy and ships, it wouldn't be such a fair fight, but that is just how the game is balanced here. Nevertheless, I still could hold my ground fairly well for a long time.

**Chieftain Khuzaymah** · January 21, 2016, 04:43 AM

Undefended Rhunaer captured and Uldonavan taken with the help of a spy.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

In case Dux wants to see the current situation, Rohan's save:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

----------------------

Originally Posted by Dragon.

A neutral third party would have said, that in this map letting Gondor and Harad be together was a mistake, towards the others.

Originally Posted by Adanedhel

I have more troops than you Joe, and have more elite units in my stacks counting in Eorling Axemen, which I would argue, are better than your Gondor Militia. I would divide Theodred's awesome movement range between two generals giving them both at least 30%, while you have 0. You already had a go at my stacks and were far from defeating them, I know, I tested that. The extra units you bribed wouldn't make a difference. Don't forget that I had two 7 star generals and you only Imrahil (2*). So I would be moving both my stacks together pushing you back all the way to Minas Tirith, where a new frontline would be created. All the regions on the way would probably be mine, or at least the ones nearer to the mountains.

After just conquering Isengard, I was gaining money again, so would recruit more units to counter any offensive from Aldburg. I could recruit units even this turn (elite units), but it wouldn't make any difference. I also had at least a half stack near Isengard, which I didn't move because they wouldn't make it to Erech in time or anywhere else. I would attack your western provinces or take all the rebel settlements in the area.

Of course, having a way better economy and ships, it wouldn't be such a fair fight, but that is just how the game is balanced here. Nevertheless, I still could hold my ground fairly well for a long time.

Everyone was involved in picking the teams that would play in the semi final. The teams were composed before the players were assigned, and we all agreed that TATW doesn't have the best possibility to set up a 2vs2vs2, but neither of you guys disagreed with these teams. I think it is unfair to complain about it at the last turn. If you were not satisfied, you should have spoken when you were asked if you had any objections. Hell, even when you were assigned Rohan/Rhun you could express your disagreement.

I don't think Gondor/Harad is an advantaged team. In this HS, Harad is without doubt the weakest faction. This is compensated by neighbouring it's ally, Gondor. However, Joe and me didn't really team up with armies. We actively discussed our tactics, but we didn't need eachother's military assistance. . Mordor's defeat is Joe's effort only without any help from Harad. Rhun's current losing situation is all Harad's effort, without any help from Gondor.

I think not only did we accomplish the most victories and least defeats against both teams, if we were to continue this HS nonetheless we would come out on top. I also believe Gondor can easily defend your attack and basically that is all it needs to do as Harad will at this point undoubtedly become victorious over Rhun.

**Adanedhel** · January 21, 2016, 05:07 AM

I merely elaborated on how the situation looks between Rohan and Gondor. The Harad-Rhun match-up is a totally different story and if Harad would defeat Rhun, then obviously a meager Rohan could not stand a chance against you two. It would be very hard to fight Gondor alone.

Unlike Dragon, I think the 3vs3vs3 was the best option available to us and was fairly balanced. If I am allowed to fuss, I would say that Gondor was allowed into Mordor way too easily.

Mordor's defeat is Joe's effort only without any help from Harad.

I would disagree, Mordor helped a lot. With all due respect to BlackWolf, Joe was given a huge gift after Mordor's slip up. That victory, that Gondor was so fortunate to achieve, was a game-changing even winner-defining moment, especially that joe was allowed to block off the mountain path and kill every single orc, not that I have anything against this ruling. It was just very fortunate for Gondor. Just as comparison, all the victories I achieved against Isengard (except the last ones) didn't give me a straight victory over the faction. The capital was nearly constantly manned with a 3/4 stack with Saruman, which basically meant it was impossible to take it. After Gondor destroyed that Mordor full stack, it was pretty obvious that the other regions would fall. Scoring-wise, a victory over Mordor is way more profitable than a victory over Isengard, since Mordor has at least twice as many settlements.

**Chieftain Khuzaymah** · January 21, 2016, 05:22 AM

Come on now, the Isengard player ended almost every turn with a post "I have to make a gamble" or "This is a huge risk, but I have to...."

It was also Rhun who interfered in the Gondor vs Mordor battle, forcing Mordor to also defend other borders. As slightly as it is, weakening Mordor while you know you can not hold any of the lands you capture when Gondor breaks through. I think that was just a poor strategical move from you guys, or am I wrong?

**Adanedhel** · January 21, 2016, 06:11 AM

Come on now, the Isengard player ended almost every turn with a post "I have to make a gamble" or "This is a huge risk, but I have to...."

Which does not change the fact that Isengard was impregnable not allowing for a straightforward victory, while Gondor was fortunate once and won the game. We did not expect such a loss by Mordor near Minas Morgul. That army would have easily defended the pass, imo, allowing Rhun to steal 1 or 2 settlements. So I'd say the strategy (at least at the time) seemed pretty sound. The hotseat, of course, went in a different direction.

**Egyptian_Viking** · January 21, 2016, 06:42 AM

Since the Hotseat is now officially over and you started mentioning Mordor and Isengard I just want to say a few things.
I will not try to portray anyone as winner, that is not what this post is about. I just want to bring up some things that bothered me in this hotseat.
If truth be told I really disliked the Hotseat as I think it was very unbalanced. Here's why I think so:

Let's begin with Mordor:

In a 1 vs 1, Gondor tends to beat Mordor more often than not.
This makes sense due to the advantage of Boromir's movement and the advantage that comes with the ships. Not to mention Gondor's superior economy.

In this hotseat we had a 1 vs 1 scenario between Gondor and Mordor and I don't honestly understand how this happened to begin with. Was there a NAP between Rohan and Gondor? As far as I know you guys did not fight a single battle until Mordor and Isengard were defeated. If there would have been action between Rohan and Gondor, then Gondor would not be as OP as it was in this Hotseat, but then Rohan would be at a huge disadvantage. However, I am slipping away from what I wanted to say about Mordor.

Let's pretend that a Gondor-Mordor 1v1 is perfeclty balanced with a 50% winrate for both sides. But now we take away Dol Guldur - a moneymaker and a great place to create more units. Mordor's already crappy economy will suffer from this. One can argue that this settlement is too far awyay to be of any use, But the income and even the destruction of the buildings inside would help Mordor. Without Dol Guldur, let's still be naive and assume there is a 50% winrate for both sides. Now we add Rhûn and Harad to the mix. Mordor can't possibly expect to beat Gondor while spending units to watch out for potential Rhûn / Harad attacks from the North /East. Up until (I think it was?) turn 19 the only faction who had been attacked by more than one faction was Mordor.

So what I want to say from this is that Mordor was underbalanced in the situation it was put in. I am not saying Mordor is an underbalanced faction, just that it had the worst starting position by far. In the middle of the map with 3 potential enemies.
Another faction with a bad starting position is Rohan, but since Gondor and Rohan never fought it seems the set-up never really was a big problem for Rohan. I don't really know much about it ofc, as I never had a chance to take a look at Rohan's or Gondor's turns.
I can only speak from my own perspective and there might be some things you do not agree with me about, and there might be other issues as well which I am not aware of. But I just wanted to have this said. And I hope that if there ever is a tournament in TATW again that this particular set-up is not used.

As for Mordor's big defeat I have nothing to say. I don't know why my teammate decided to leave his army out in the open when we did know the movement range of Gondor's forces. But then again I'm sure there are things I could have done better as well which he thought were strange.

Apart from everything else I was previoulsy also very furious that RNGesus hated on me as Isengard in this hotseat, while he gave Adanedhel Drillmaster and other movement bonuses already on turn 2. I got a 15-turns mission to attack a settlement outside the map boundries. And after that mission expired I got the same mission but for another settlement. And of course my spy decided to die on the same turn that I created him which caused me to be blind the entire Hotseat, making it practically impossible to do anything since Adanedhel had the movement advantage and could hide in places without me being able to know it. However, I still did some bad plays in the beginning so ofc bad luck was not the only thing that killed me.

**General Dragon.** · January 21, 2016, 08:01 AM

Well to know the issue real hand, you have to play it first, that is why I didn't rant at the beginning. I already knew Gondor-Harad will be good, as you don't have to pay for ships and both of you have good economy. Now I was sure I can match this, however I learned this after few turns that I was wrong and that point there was no reason to complain, as the hotseat will not restart. I do not deny, that you two fought hard for this win, but let me tell my point of view of this whole hotseat.

Egyiptian know this, but you weren't the unlucky one either here. For the whole hotseat Lord Margoz never got any bonus MP. I moved him every turn and got nothing. Even my FL got only the first logicstic one and that's all, so Chieftain you kinda won by luck against me. Never got the bonus MPs, you managed to get which allowed you to push into my territory, while I can't fight back, as the AR is not favoured by the defender. You would have won probably every battle, if you initiate.
It is kinda sad, that I lost due to some rng, but oh well.

Secondly the whole map. I only realized that taking that two settlements from Rhun which are nearby that lake, was a big mistake. Rhun's good economy in other hotseats depends on those two settlement also. Both of them are making atleast 3k per turns which is really good, but not here. This time I lost 3k possible income and I realized very soon, that I am running out of steam. That 3k was a big loss for me, while both Gondor and Harad lost nothing compared in territories.

I would say I lost my war with the unlucky rng and that income lost. That is why I attacked Mordor as I had to get some other income and as Egyiptian said also Mordor is in a bad position also with this, which makes the situation for Mordor really hard. I also tell you this, but I talked with Wolf and before his mistakes, that I considered to work with him together against both of you. Then the first big mistake happened and I changed my plan to grab as much as I can from Mordor, which didn't turned out that much due to the other mistake and the big MP from Gondor.

I have to say I was supposed to win the match against Chieftain, should everything turn out perfectly for me. Getting bonus MPs and that two settlement I could have probably made a good push on Harad. I had more forces against your FL chieftain at Ammu-Khand but without bonus MPs I couldn't initiate, then I made a mistake and you showed up another full stack, with even more MP, while I had still nothing of that. It was just embarrasment for me and ended in a complete defeat, which happened at everyone eyes.

**Chieftain Khuzaymah** · January 21, 2016, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Egyptian_Viking

In a 1 vs 1, Gondor tends to beat Mordor more often than not.

That is interesting, because for a long time Joe and me had to fight everyone about this. Everyone always said Mordor is OP and we need balancing patches for Gondor vs Mordor. In my honest opinion, the balance between those factions is pretty good. It is a matter of which player is managing which faction which determines the outcome. Keeping all else equal, no interference from any other faction, I would even put my money on Mordor (at least, if I get to play it

)

Originally Posted by Dragon.

Egyiptian know this, but you weren't the unlucky one either here. For the whole hotseat Lord Margoz never got any bonus MP. I moved him every turn and got nothing. Even my FL got only the first logicstic one and that's all, so Chieftain you kinda won by luck against me. Never got the bonus MPs, you managed to get which allowed you to push into my territory, while I can't fight back, as the AR is not favoured by the defender. You would have won probably every battle, if you initiate.

You realise most of Harad's generals start with the Eager trait? So they already have a 10% MP bonus at the start. My FL ended with 20% MP bonus, so just like your FL, mine only got 1 trait during the whole HS. Likewise Rhun's FL receives the transferable Chief of the Balchoth retinue every turn, providing free +2 MP for every general you have (so Margoz actually starts with +2 MP + 10%), but you didn't even use it. Furthermore you positioned your generals in settlements several times, which doesn't provide you with the movement traits. You surely did not move Margoz every turn even though you claim so. If you like we can go over every turn and count how many times you put Margoz in a settlement, and I'm not only talking about the last couple of turns. Besides there are more tricks to obtain movement points, one of which Ubaadah had. If you knew about those, you would most definitely have that too, but again you didn't. I don't mean to start a verbal offensive here and no bad feelings from my side, but it's absolutely uncalled for to call Harad's victory blind luck and due to RNG.

To summarize:
1) You didn't utilize your MP potential.
2) You retreated your armies always much further than you had to. Almost every turn I was surprised at the space you provided me.
3) You made a costly mistake at Ammu Khand.

So you were just clearly outskilled in the East, whether due to an edge in RNG if any, due to your strategic choices or due to your mistakes, it is not relevant. If you tried harder and had more knowledge regarding several movement traits, you would perhaps even outmatch my best MP general. In any case, if you just managed to obtain the most simplest movement trait and transfer Borthand's retinue to Margoz (which Borthand receives every turn if he doesn't have one), then you would definitely match my best MP general.

Near Ithilien it was me who made the mistake and you defeated me. Speaking of Ithilien, you had a +30% MP general. This general was adopted with the Drillmaster trait and then received a point for LogisticalSkill twice, I know this because you can not adopt generals with the LogisticalSkill trait. So I think you are exaggerating about our luck and your bad luck.

Once more, I hope we can all end this HS as friends and no hard feelings towards each other, but from my part I need to have it said. I do not accept our victory being seen as our luck and your bad luck, due to RNG. You are now providing false arguments to build a case and I'm not buying it. I feel proud of Joe and myself for what we have accomplished. I would like for you to get your revenge in another hotseat, which I'll be happy to join. Hell, duplicate this HS and Joe and me will volunteer to play Rohan/Rhun. (Right? Joe?)

**General Dragon.** · January 21, 2016, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Chieftain Khuzaymah

You realise most of Harad's generals start with the Eager trait? So they already have a 10% MP bonus at the start. My FL ended with 20% MP bonus, so just like your FL, mine only got 1 trait during the whole HS. Likewise Rhun's FL receives the transferable Chief of the Balchoth retinue every turn, providing free +2 MP for every general you have (so Margoz actually starts with +2 MP + 10%), but you didn't even use it. Furthermore you positioned your generals in settlements several times, which doesn't provide you with the movement traits. You surely did not move Margoz every turn even though you claim so. If you like we can go over every turn and count how many times you put Margoz in a settlement, and I'm not only talking about the last couple of turns. Besides there are more tricks to obtain movement points, one of which Ubaadah had. If you knew about those, you would most definitely have that too, but again you didn't. I don't mean to start a verbal offensive here and no bad feelings from my side, but it's absolutely uncalled for to call Harad's victory blind luck and due to RNG.

To summarize:
1) You didn't utilize your MP potential.
2) You retreated your armies always much further than you had to. Almost every turn I was surprised at the space you provided me.
3) You made a costly mistake at Ammu Khand.

So you were just clearly outskilled in the East, whether due to an edge in RNG if any, due to your strategic choices or due to your mistakes, it is not relevant. If you tried harder and had more knowledge regarding several movement traits, you would perhaps even outmatch my best MP general. In any case, if you just managed to obtain the most simplest movement trait and transfer Borthand's retinue to Margoz (which Borthand receives every turn if he doesn't have one), then you would definitely match my best MP general.

You are wrong. I admit I didn't know my FL will get that chief of balchoth everyturn, so I didn't give it to Margoz, but I thought I would give him, if he gets logicstic skills but he never got. Also even my FL couldn't reach your armies, with everything he got, then tell me how could Margoz do then? He only had eager and even if I give that chief of balchoth he will still end in the same as my FL in MP range, which your armies still out range me.
Also you are wrong who were in a settlement. Margoz was always outside of settlements except the last few turns and my FL was in settlements sometimes at Ammu Khand.
As I said I would have give the trait to Margoz if he would get any points into logicstic, but that didn't happened, so it wasn't usefull anyway to do it, hence it remained on my FL.

Also about giving you space to push. You were coming with two full stacks while I barely had a full stack and my AR isn't that good against Harad, so either I sacrifice myself or pull back. I only managed to get enough forces in my opinion was at the settlement, where I finally garrisoned 900 unit. That was the time when you changed targets.

If we are already here then tell me, how did you get that second option for more bonus MP? Even if you say I was outskilled every trait is % based to get, so luck is in it, no matter how you try to ignore that, so my reasoning remains. From my viewpoints, your summarise saying that I was doing my turns as a new player, who never played hotseats and getting those bonus MPs are like so easy. Yeah tell me, then 5% probability to get a bonus MP trait is how easy? I had spies not opening gates for 96% in multiple times then getting not a single chance in 21 turns with 5% chance can happen also.

Near Ithilien it was me who made the mistake and you defeated me. Speaking of Ithilien, you had a +30% MP general. This general was adopted with the Drillmaster trait and then received a point for LogisticalSkill twice, I know this because you can not adopt generals with the LogisticalSkill trait. So I think you are exaggerating about our luck and your bad luck.

All right that was a good one, but that wasn't my main frontline so I won't acknowledge that one so important.

**Chieftain Khuzaymah** · January 21, 2016, 11:18 AM

I play my turns on different PCs, so I don't have all my saves available on this one, but if you insist...

I went over turns 6 to 11. Only turn 9 there was no FL or FH inside.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

**General Dragon.** · January 22, 2016, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by Chieftain Khuzaymah

I play my turns on different PCs, so I don't have all my saves available on this one, but if you insist...

I went over turns 6 to 11. Only turn 9 there was no FL or FH inside.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9T...ew?usp=sharing

Then I rephrase it. I didn't get it in 16 turns instead of 21. It doesn't matter, as seeing how this worked out I don't think that extra 3 turn would have mattered in the end.
Especially when your second full stack showed up.

Don't get me wrong I don't say you didn't do a good job, but your last post was for me, like doing what you did is only child play, especially getting bonus MPs. Aswell saying that you got bonus MPs and I don't is outskilling someone, when every trait is % based, so luck based not skill. I hate when people say for something that you don't have control over ever to be "skill" based.
5% is 5% and it didn't worked out for me, aswell that 3k income loss I mentioned earlier. Anyway the past is past, so let's move on and good luck in the finals.

**Dux** · January 21, 2016, 11:30 AM

I declare team Harad-Gondor the winners of TATW TAG Semi Final. Congratulations Joe and Chieftain.

Harad has had the upper hand to Rhun, despite losing its faction heir. Rhun captured a lot of settlements, but lost a lot as well. Harad gained a lot of settlements, including Undovan.

Gondor gained a lot points defeating Mordor and later driving Rhun from Mordor.
Rohan also gained a lot of points defeating Isengard, but overall less points than Gondor.

Gondor gained most points, followed by Rohan, followed by Harad, followed by Rhun. So Gondor and Harad win.

Rohan-Rhun made a good effort and are a worthy second place.

It was a fun hotseat, you guys arguing about it showed how much you were invested it it and despite everything I think you guys had a very good time.

Now, on to the FINALS!

**Adanedhel** · January 21, 2016, 02:11 PM

I certainly had a blast, even though I'm sad I can't play in the final. Well, congrats are due at this point, so good job Joe and Chieftain!
Now go and show Westeros and Main how it's done and make us proud! You definitely got my support.