Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of France

[Slytacular]

Yeah, a research thread about mercenaries would be terrific!

[Kjertesvein]

This may be seen as nit-pick, and I'm not even going to excuse that. As THFE Productions pointed out, who happen to be french Canadian if I remember correct, noted that the Grendarmes should actually be written as Gendarmes.

Word Origin and History for gendarme

n.
1540s, "mounted trooper," from French contraction (14c.) of gens d'armes"men at arms[...]

Online Etymology Dictionary. Douglas Harper, Historian.

~Wille

[Lauvergna91]

A french guy confirm it's gendarme still now .

[Nelduin]

I'm French and I can confirm: we say "Gendarme" or "Gendarmes" (plural). "Gens" means "People".

"Gendarme - Gens d'armes" is like "Men-at-arms", it means "Armed people".

The "Gendarmes" are still a Police Force, by the way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie.

[Påsan]

Ah ok.

Thanks for the correction :thumbup2

[Påsan]

So Gendarme is french for Men-at-Arms.

Can't be easy making a varied strategy game when every nation just name their soldiers "Man with weapon"

[Kelnadror]

So Gendarme is french for Men-at-Arms.

Can't be easy making a varied strategy game when every nation just name their soldiers "Man with weapon"

Actually no. "Gens d'armes" means men-at-arms, yes, but the contraction "Gendarmes", in medieval time, is specific to that heavy cavalry. So it's "Gendarmes" and not "Grendarmes", but men-at-arms would be wrong. (I'm French too, sorry if I made some mistakes)

[Kelnadror]

By the way, awesome job on this mod guys.

[druzhina345]

Slytacular, re your PM request for images - here are some for 13th century France:
Painted wood box with the Legend of Guilhem of Orange, Southern France, about 1200–1225
Histoire d'Outremer by Willam of Tyre, Northern France, British Library Ms. Yates Thompson 12, 1232-1261
The Morgan Crusader Bible of Louis IX or Maciejowski Bible or The Bible of Shah Abbas, Francee, mid 13th Century
Statues of Abram and Melchizedek, Reims Notre-Dame Cathedral, France, after 1251AD
Relief of the Betrayal and Arrest of Jesus, Amiens, France, 1264–88AD
Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre, called the Lyon Eracles, Lyon - Bibliothèque de la Ville - Ms P.A. 29, 1280AD
L'Estoire de Merlin by Robert de Borron. BnF MS Français 95, Northern France, c.1280-1290
French Crossbowman in Pierpont Morgan Library. Manuscript. M.969, fol. 150r, northeastern France, last quarter of 13th century
Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre - Boulogne-sur-mer BM - Ms 142, made c.1287
Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre - Walters Art Museum Ms. W.137, from Picardy, 1295-1300

and 14th century France:
Goliath as a French Knight, Bible, Thott Ms.7, Konegelige Bibliotek, Copenhagen, c.1300
Chroniques de France ou de St Denis, BL Royal 16 G VI, France, 1332-1350
Archers in the Martyrdom of Saint Christine in La Legende des Sains de Jacques de Voragine, 1348AD, Paris, France, BnF MS Français 241
Grandes Chroniques de France de Charles V BnF MS Français 2813, France, c.1375-1380
French costume & soldiers in the Angers Apocalypse tapestry, 1377-1382
Illustrations of French soldiers in 'La chanson de Bertrand du Guesclin' by Jean Cuvelier, c. 1380-1392. BL MS Yates Thompson 35
Chroniques de France ou de St Denis, British Library Royal 20 C VII, c.1398

Druzhina345
14th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[Visarion]

@warman222 you should update the thread with the new units... those new Scots Guards are insane...

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Great job with the modelling, it must have taken you ages. Your units look cool, just one minor comment. The sergeants with the nose pieces on their helmets seem old school. Or were these helmets still in use in France in the 13th C?

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

A little preview of some of the work being done to revamp France

Early Chevaliers (horse barding will be removed from early period horses)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

High-Period Men at Arms

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

High Period Gens de Cheval (barding will be added)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Late period Hallebardiers and Pavesiers:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Filips Augustus]

Woah great stuff there man, it's a dream come true!

[zsimmortal]

That should be Pavoisiers, but nice job

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

That should be Pavoisiers, but nice job

You'll get that word if you put 'paviser' into google translate, but that is the only place I have seen that word used and for that reason I am pretty sure it is incorrect. Pavois is the large shield, but Pavesier is the French word for a person who holds a Pavois. In context of any source I have read, pavesier is nearly always the word used to describe the valets who hold the large shields.

[zsimmortal]

You'll get that word if you put 'paviser' into google translate, but that is the only place I have seen that word used and for that reason I am pretty sure it is incorrect. Pavois is the large shield, but Pavesier is the French word for a person who holds a Pavois. In context of any source I have read, pavesier is nearly always the word used to describe the valets who hold the large shields.

Took a quick look because I'm French and always only known the term Pavoisiers. Apparently Pavoisiers is only applied to Pavois-carrying crossbowman (maybe for other troops but I didn't look further) and Pavesiers for municipal soldiers that did not know how to use crossbows or for shield-bearers for archers. I can't say if it there was a linguistic change at one point or if there were different ways of spelling it based on dialect, however. Pavoisiers is not an incorrect term whatsoever though, e.g. :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

It's very possible that what we have here is one of those artefacts which come from regional differences in spelling and a lack of language standardization in the time period. Medieval terms are seldom so exact as you are suggesting there, so I don't believe that using the word as a distinction between municipal or otherwise would have been contemporary to the period. Yet another possibility is just that both words were used to describe the same thing, which is very common. This is the first time I've seen it spelled that way, so I'll stick with Pavesiers.

[zsimmortal]

It's very possible that what we have here is one of those artefacts which come from regional differences in spelling and a lack of language standardization in the time period. Medieval terms are seldom so exact as you are suggesting there, so I don't believe that using the word as a distinction between municipal or otherwise would have been contemporary to the period. Yet another possibility is just that both words were used to describe the same thing, which is very common. This is the first time I've seen it spelled that way, so I'll stick with Pavesiers.

You are indeed correct regarding the use of the troops, though pavoisiers do seem to be amongst the expected levies from cities (as were crossbowmen). However, I've done a summary google research in French and Pavesiers yields exceptionally few references to Pavesiers (and most are English), whereas Pavoisiers has a very long list, I've just put all of the references to Pavesiers vs the first few pages of book references to Pavoisiers (not including the one I put before) : http://imgur.com/a/QVHpz.

As for the choice of terms, it is up to you. But as a French-speaker, the word you're using was foreign to me.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

You are indeed correct regarding the use of the troops, though pavoisiers do seem to be amongst the expected levies from cities (as were crossbowmen). However, I've done a summary google research in French and Pavesiers yields exceptionally few references to Pavesiers (and most are English), whereas Pavoisiers has a very long list, I've just put all of the references to Pavesiers vs the first few pages of book references to Pavoisiers (not including the one I put before) : http://imgur.com/a/QVHpz.

As for the choice of terms, it is up to you. But as a French-speaker, the word you're using was foreign to me.

Thanks for your concern, but I chose my terms very carefully, just as I do for all the factions I have worked on. The main source I used to choose the name of that unit was Contamine, who is French. And if we're just google-searching the words, I get SIGNIFICANTLY more hits for pavesiers than pavoisiers, the majority of them sources written in French, in the context of referring to archers or men holding pavois. Often Pavoisier turned up results that were people's names, and google was very insistent that it made sure I wasn't searching for Lavoisier, who was a chemist, apparently.

I appreciate constructive feedback, and you can see from the development threads of all my factions that I take that feedback seriously, and often make changes based on data that people from this forum give me. I can appreciate your position, if this is the way you were taught to write the word, and clearly there are also some others that do as well. However, sources that I trust more than you use the other word, so that's what I'm going with. This complaint has been drawn out way too much and created a lot of wasted traffic on this thread, since we've already established that it is an accepted term--and by the looks of it, probably the more widely used term in academic circles. I'm not spending any more time on this.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[zsimmortal]

Thanks for your concern, but I chose my terms very carefully, just as I do for all the factions I have worked on. The main source I used to choose the name of that unit was Contamine, who is French. And if we're just google-searching the words, I get SIGNIFICANTLY more hits for pavesiers than pavoisiers, the majority of them sources written in French, in the context of referring to archers or men holding pavois. Often Pavoisier turned up results that were people's names, and google was very insistent that it made sure I wasn't searching for Lavoisier, who was a chemist, apparently.

I appreciate constructive feedback, and you can see from the development threads of all my factions that I take that feedback seriously, and often make changes based on data that people from this forum give me. I can appreciate your position, if this is the way you were taught to write the word, and clearly there are also some others that do as well. However, sources that I trust more than you use the other word, so that's what I'm going with. This complaint has been drawn out way too much and created a lot of wasted traffic on this thread, since we've already established that it is an accepted term--and by the looks of it, probably the more widely used term in academic circles. I'm not spending any more time on this.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Since I don't want to make this into a massive argument, I'll just leave you the search details in French :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: