Is it possible to have an interesting battle as a Hellenic faction?

[HateDread]

I've tried as Sparta in DEI and as Macedon and Athens in vanilla, but it feels like you're mostly waiting for the enemy to run onto your spears/pikes, and then you do a little flanking. It's as textbook as hammer-and-anvil comes. At least with Rome you've got fairly flexible options in offense/defence, with your units being fairly adaptable.

What are some alternative ways to play these factions? It seems like a single phalanx line is the way to go, and that's it.

[Ygraine]

You can try Epirus and hire some molossian dogs which add a whole new level of "RNG" (while also being awesome and cuddly) & as Macedon you got all those badass peltasts who can also flank like light infantry (Agrarians). I never only train hoplits and pikes as these factions - a lot of flexible light infantry is actually very nice (and cheaper)!

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Well, besides what Ygraine said, what were you expecting when you picked to play factions almost entirely known for hoplites and pikes?

That being said, Syracuse has a roster with a lot more sword units. Cimmeria also has big flexibility in army composition because of a huge aor selection.

And if you want mobility and adaptability, our Pergamon surprise might be just what you're looking for.

[Mark of Calth]

Hehe yeah, Pergamon seem FUN so far Swords/Thureophoroi make for a more Roman/Gallic feel, and AoR troops are definitely your friends for non-phalanx Hellenic armies. Also, I've had some success with using pikes aggressively. They certainly aren't just defensive troops.

[GourmetGorilla]

Both pikes and hoplites can be used offensively, as stated previously, and yes, I've had many interesting battles as the Greeks.

[Irishmafia2020]

I only have 3-4 units of pikes in any Hellenic army - I can't imagine using only pikes! That kind of military force would be very inflexible! I really have enjoyed playing with Hellenic factions, but my army is pretty diverse - in many cases the different armies have different specialties, for example "assault" or "Royal Guard" or "foreign legion" and they therefore have very different characteristics. Also, the various hoplites are very similar to the early roman army, so unless you hate using the Camillian units of Hastati, Principes, Triari, and Samnites, then I am not really clear what you are complaining about. Aside from that point, I would argue that the Illyrian faction is really enjoyable, and it is virtually a mix between an Italian and a Hellenic style faction. They are technically a barbarian faction, but I really enjoyed playing them, and I found their units to be amongst the most flexible forces available. Also their starting location gives them access to a lot of "civilized" troops and brings them into conflict with the major Mediterranean powers almost immediately!

[son of romans]

I don't know if it was noticed...but phalanx of heavy pikeman can be 20 times more offensive then line infantry...I can show screenshots of battles played at very hard...custom battle or campaign where phalanx was used offensively and they smashed throw legionaries ranks in some seconds...killing like in Alexander movie just marching throw enemies...for example 5 units of dacian komatay pikemen can slain 5 units of cohorts evocata in 8 minutes with loosing 47 men...you just need to be in open terain and use attack corect...and Epirus in strongest faction in game from start....they have molossian dogs from start, 4 battalions of them can ''eat'' an entire enemy army before it reaches your on other side of the map...or you can simply retry with your general...from enemy line until all enemies are eaten+early access to gastrophetes from Syracuse and peltasts...hoplitai...and phalanx...their generals are to slow for me...in rest...invincible faction+armored elephants who if droped behind and roman legion can do scaring results...

[gornoviceanu]

I make use of light peltasts and my battles are pretty interesting as Hellenic factions..


I use a first line of peltasts a second line of hoplites and a third one of archers. My flanks are cavalry and light peltats. When I get access to better units I usually have 1-2 elite units in the back or somewhere in the hoplite line and maybe thureos troops on the flanks instead of peltasts, depending on the battle. It's viable and way more fun than pikes. Light peltasts are one of the best skirmishers in the game and they can hold up a line for quite some time since they have a high melee defense score, enough for your archers to deal some heavy damage.

Pikes are for wussies, real greeks fight in hoplite phalanx and skirmish

[Muha]

Get a pike army, get attacked, place pikes in corner facing out, begin battle and go eat dinner.

[Ygraine]

Get a pike army, get attacked, place pikes in corner facing out, begin battle and go eat dinner.

Come back from a yummy dinner just to find your pikes all dead and AI standing there with veteran archers/slingers!

[Irishmafia2020]

@sons of romans - Epirus is the strongest faction in the game??? I agree that they have one of the strongest rosters, but they rarely survive in my games, and only 1/4 of the time am I able to survive and expand with Epirus! A few players talk about how invincible they are, but a lot of us are overpowered by wars against Rome, Syracuse, Athens, Sparta, and the Illyrians within the first year! If those wars don't happen (and they usually do) I agree that they are a potential juggernaut... Really they would be my favorite faction if I hadn't suffered so many ignominious defeats within the first two years! I do play a house rules that my dogs are limited to one per army - more than that and they would be overpowered... In my opinion Rome and Egypt start with the strongest positions in this game, and the Seleucids, Takashila, and maybe Illyrians (Ardeie - spelling) have the strongest rosters... The Seleucids have access to everything that Epirus has, but have even more heavily armored cavalry, archers, infantry, and elephants - plus a better economy - they can even get war dogs from Cappadocia! Also the Illyrians armies are dominating over other infantry armies as soon as they reach the second tier barracks, which they can get within the first two years. Of course this is all my opinion.

Actually I might try another campaign as Epirus - maybe today, since it probably won't last long anyway - I'll probably capture Sparta and lose my capital in the same turn!

[son of romans]

@sons of romans - Epirus is the strongest faction in the game??? I agree that they have one of the strongest rosters, but they rarely survive in my games, and only 1/4 of the time am I able to survive and expand with Epirus! A few players talk about how invincible they are, but a lot of us are overpowered by wars against Rome, Syracuse, Athens, Sparta, and the Illyrians within the first year! If those wars don't happen (and they usually do) I agree that they are a potential juggernaut... Really they would be my favorite faction if I hadn't suffered so many ignominious defeats within the first two years! I do play a house rules that my dogs are limited to one per army - more than that and they would be overpowered... In my opinion Rome and Egypt start with the strongest positions in this game, and the Seleucids, Takashila, and maybe Illyrians (Ardeie - spelling) have the strongest rosters... The Seleucids have access to everything that Epirus has, but have even more heavily armored cavalry, archers, infantry, and elephants - plus a better economy - they can even get war dogs from Cappadocia! Also the Illyrians armies are dominating over other infantry armies as soon as they reach the second tier barracks, which they can get within the first two years. Of course this is all my opinion.

Actually I might try another campaign as Epirus - maybe today, since it probably won't last long anyway - I'll probably capture Sparta and lose my capital in the same turn!

Yes, as an AI faction Epirus never survive first 10 turns but I like factions with initial hard challenge...but with good roster...if you are interested I can give some of my save games with Epirus...I managed at very hard/normal difficulty to take in 13 turns - Sparta, Athens, Province of Magna Grecia and Italy...romans are slain...now war with carthage. so, definetly there is hope for Epirus...and those who play with them.

[son of romans]

But, I have forget house rule with dogs, Epirus are masters of molossians dogs...but made another house rules - never loose a battle, a city, a general+gastrophetes are overpowered...and they are available soon for Epirus.
With Seleucids is hard to get kapodopian dogs, becouse is long time to researche those civil technologies needed to build tier III minor city.

[Butan]

True that most spear-heavy faction are boring against the AI.
They are enjoyable on a multiplayer campaign though




A house rule tweak would be, to not spread your spear units wider than default width, to limit your pinning down power.

[Tyso3]

I often use Hellenic armies on DEI, And yes the tactic most of the time is just hit their line and flank, but to be honest that is the tactic for most of DEI. If you have 1 heavy infantry vs another heavy infantry, they will keep fighting for 20 mins, but flanking them can break them.

The real advantage is that pikes can kill people 20 feet away, while being at little or no threat. I usually keep pikes in centre, hoplites on the flanks with a flanking force of light/heavy infantry (usually marines) for flanking.

Massilia offers a good change of pace due to its greek defensive units and local Gallic offensive units.

[yukishiro1]

You can use pikes offensively to vary things up. Much higher risk because you have to be careful not to get flanked but its effective and much more entertaining to use them to punch through the enemies' center.

Peltasts are another high maintenance but very effective type of unit. You can get a huge amount of kills with the javelins if you use them right.

[Frankly]

I've played some of Massilia in vanilla - as Tyso3 says they've got a nice mix of greek units and local celtic warriors. I never really felt like I was being passive - being passive usually meant I'd get outplayed on the strategic map by growing gallic alliances and the same on the battlefield. I actually had one cheeky AI run their (thureos?) swordsmen within 20 foot of my hoplite wall and start letting loose with their javelins. I hadn't even expected anything but a full-on YOLO charge and my celtic warriors weren't in place for a proper charge yet. Not to mention my poor slingers just getting ~20 kills a battle unless I could get a decent flank very early on.

I haven't had a chance to try them in DeI but I'm sure their faction has been done justice! Personally I'm waiting on 1.1 before I go greek again

[Tyso3]

Youll have fun with DEI 1.1 and its new Campaign in Macedonia