WRE: Roman Paganism v Latin Christianity

[yupper]

I don't know if it's just me, but religion seems rather superfluous for WRE. Both Latin Christianity (LC) and Roman Paganism (RP) religious building chains are "meh" in terms of the public order benefits they yield:

- the public order bonus produced by religious buildings pale in comparison to those produced by city center cultural buildings. Circus yields +21 public order, produces 825 wealth per turn, and acts as a de facto religious building generating +3 RP in the region. By contrast, a Latin Patriarchal Cathedral generates +8 public order, and is actually a per turn drain on your treasury that makes it rather unsustainable to build and upgrade in every province (although I guess that's why LC players are advise to mainly build only bath houses in towns, and not use city slots for LC religious buildings unless they can afford it). Level 4 RP religious buildings are not much better, generating only +10 public order (but at least they drain food, not money).

- for WRE, negative public order stemming from "religious differences" seems to pale in comparison to those caused by "immigration", so converting the populace to the state religion doesn't seem like a priority.

- edicts for LC seems better than edits for RP. "Ecumenical Matters" is pretty useful for ensuring income as WRE gains territories and corruption escalates, and "Bread and Games" is essential for stabilizing regions in the early campaign before you have built the infrastructure for food and public order buildings. RP edicts, on the other hand, seem "meh."

- granted, converting to RP means the -10 moral penalty against Christian armies from Hun hordes no long applies to you, and +2 sanitation can help when squalor increases unexpectedly due to seasonal changes.

- upgrading the city center cultural building chain (auditorium --> circus) and the administration building chain (capitol --> governor palace) pretty much solves any public order issues for the province for the entire campaign. I can generally get enough food to sustain both building chains in most provinces, even in late game climate change.

- pursuing the religious civil tech chain eventually disables legacy techs and you can't build amphitheaters and circuses any more. Even though Latin religious civil techs produce some public order bonuses, they don't make up for the short fall. It also disables "improved plumbing" so you can no longer upgrade the aqueduct building chain--but then the sanitation bonuses provided by LC and LC religious buildings would displace the need for the aqueduct building chain.

Conclusion
So, basically, it almost feels that by ignoring religious buildings and religion altogether. As long as I don't pursue the religious civil tech chain that disables legacy techs, I can still build and upgrade amphitheatres and circuses, and WRE can still get some bonuses from both religions, attempt to maximize income and public order. I can complete the game as WRE without ever building a single religious building or making use of any priests.

It feels weird...but, thoughts?

[ThorHa]

Fits. Playing as ERE solely so far I confirm the conclusions with the one exception for priests - experienced priests can help with enemy agents and can be very useful in the beginning for public order.

Although ERE later can afford it and I stick to history for role playing purposes, churches are my last priority for any city, period. Greek latin monasteries at least provide a small research bonus which stacks, but I would rather have a theater than a cathedral. If orderly pre-planned food never should be an issue, for nobody actually.

Regards,
Thorsten

[Turumba]

Conclusion
So, basically, it almost feels that by ignoring religious buildings and religion altogether. As long as I don't pursue the religious civil tech chain that disables legacy techs, I can still build and upgrade amphitheatres and circuses, and WRE can still get some bonuses from both religions, attempt to maximize income and public order. I can complete the game as WRE without ever building a single religious building or making use of any priests.

I agree. But I'm glad about that. Only exception: priests are a reliable source of public order and keep the current religion %age at a certain level or for new regions with a another religions. In my wre campaign I sticked with LC and one church in Rome for recruiting priests... that's all.

[Aenima]

Aaand now I'm beginning to think I was a tit for researching stuff that cancels out high level circuses just for the sake of getting more research done in the civil tree. Oh well, we'll see how it turns out I guess!

[yupper]

I agree. But I'm glad about that. Only exception: priests are a reliable source of public order and keep the current religion %age at a certain level or for new regions with a another religions. In my wre campaign I sticked with LC and one church in Rome for recruiting priests... that's all.

True enough. Although I personally don't see it as "essential" (primarily because I've never liked agents in most of the TW games), I can see the priest being really useful in all sorts of circumstances, not the least of which would be dealing with other faction's agents.

Aaand now I'm beginning to think I was a tit for researching stuff that cancels out high level circuses just for the sake of getting more research done in the civil tree. Oh well, we'll see how it turns out I guess!

Yeah...I started a new WRE campaign with the aim of going LC "full steam" by leaving no remnant of RP buildings, which is one thing I hadn't done before (always straddled both religions or converted to RP), only to realize that it's really hard to stabilize public order in the early campaign without building any auditoriums or amphitheaters. Not only do you miss out on the public order bonus, you also miss out on the income (and the civil tech for cultural buildings income is also rendered much less effective). You also can't really afford any new LC churches since collectively they are a substantial drain on the treasury. I toyed with the idea of putting statute --> monument building chain alongside of the capitol --> governor palace building chain, but the alternative administrative building chain don't generate revenue, and can never replace what you lose by not building the auditorium --> circus chain buildings. I am sure it's "doable" to go LC "full steam" as a matter of personal challenge, but just sort of....difficult.

[GussieFinkNottle]

Paganism conversion is actually really worth going for, just for that convenient global +2 sanitation bonus. Latin Christianity basically brings nothing to the table.
Plus the pagan edicts are better.

[yupper]

Paganism conversion is actually really worth going for, just for that convenient global +2 sanitation bonus. Latin Christianity basically brings nothing to the table.
Plus the pagan edicts are better.

I don't think religion, in general, bring much "to the table" for WRE, but I'd much rather have "Ecumenical Matters" than any other edicts (Latin Christianity or Pagan Romanism) because it really makes a difference in the late game. However, I am very much open and interested in reading a good "defense" of Pagan Romanism beyond some of the perks I already mentioned (or Latin Christianity for that matter, I have no preference)--although ideally I'd hope it would be more elaborate....

[Heathen Hammer]

Christianity can help with public order in Southern Europe, but I think sanitation boost from Paganism provides more benefits.

Also I'd rather embrace the Gods that brought Rome to Her glory, rather then a religion that nurtured Her at the deathbed.

[ThorHa]

There seems to be exactly one region in Attila where religious tension is much, much higher than usual - Ethiopia. Despite greek christian being dominant and all 3 factions there (ERE, Aksum, Noabatia) subscribing to that religion the religion differences unrest is consistently above 10, occasionally even rising to about 20 when greek christian falls below 60%.

Did not see that anywhere else, normally religious unrest is something like 2 to 5 regardless of the area of the campaign map and the specific mix of religions. Been and settled everywhere as ERE meanwhile except British isles.

Looks like a programming mistake to me.

Regards,
Thorsten

[Aenima]

What edicts does Paganism grant the WRE vs Christian edicts? The -5% corruption edict is brilliant for making more money but I'd be interested to hear what the WRE gets as a pagan state instead.

[Tanq]

I'm usually torn between Cheesus and the Olympians.

On one hand, I tend to agree, that Christianity was a key contributor to the Empire's downfall. On the other - in the ERE's particular situation, the interest income renders money a non-critical resource, while food becomes ever harder to get. Now, I usually want to revert to what appears to be a far more humane set of cults, than the abrahamic reigions of just about any age, but sadly - Olympianism is portrayed with a number of flaws. For instance - pentarchy seats, which never go away and prohibit the construction of any other temples in the settlement (jealous god indeed), the stratmap armies clearly lack some voice lines and the faction symbolism, as emblazoned on ship sails and some interface elements still feature the chi-ro (which as a traditionalist Empra, i would have banned without batting an eye)