No Spartan Legionary Unit?

[Citizen Q]

Is there any reason the Spartans don't get a Thorax Legionary unit like every other Hellenic faction does?

They get Thorax Swords, but these have lower stats than the other Hellenic Legion units and also cannot square, testudo, brace etc.

[Dresden]

Good question, I think they are the only Greek roster without them.

[Citizen Q]

They are. I checked all of the major Greek factions. Athens, Syracuse, Massalia, Pergamon, Pontus et al get them.

Only reason I noticed is that I had been playing a Spartan campaign and got the point where I had seen at least on other Greek faction with them and was super excited to get them. Got fully upgraded and never got them. Not in Custom either.

[Dresden]

Most of the Greek rosters were completed a very long time ago by Meneros who isn't active anymore. But I would assume it had something to do with the customized Spartan units.

Or it could be an oversight

[Citizen Q]

I'm gonna say oversight. Literally every other Hellenic roster has them.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Actually the Spartan's Thorax Sword unit has better stats than imitation legionnaires (not by much though).

[Augustusng]

Yeah, Sparta actually has two "imitation legionary" units, the Perioikoi Thorakitai and Spartiatai Thorakitai. Granted, neither one can use testudo or other legionary abilities...

Even then, neither of those two units is really historical though. I don't think the Spartan military ever started using Roman tactics - until they were conquered by Rome, I suppose.

[KAM 2150]

Yes, their greatest military tech advancement was arming their armies with pikes in the moment everyone else were using them for like 100 or more years already xD

[Citizen Q]

Upon further review it seems Sparta does have two units that correlate to other Greek factions Thorakitai and Thorakitai Legeonarioi in the Perioikoi Thorakitai and the Spartiatai Thorakitai.

What cause my confusion, however, is that there seems to be a bad copy paste on the Spartiatai Thorakitai. The Spartan legionary unit has better values than all the other Greek legion units with two exceptions, its javelins and its formations. The reason for this is because those values look to have been copied from the Thorakitai unit of other Greek factions instead of from the Legeonarioi one. I'll post screenshots when I can.

Would love to see this fixed because I'm a huge fan of playing as Sparta and it's pretty obviously a mistake.

[KAM 2150]

They should not have them in the first place imo ; P Also you are spreading blasphemy, if you are huge fan of Sparta you do not need legionares, where is your faith in spear and a shield?

[Don_Diego]

Lol, true Kam but I think he has a point, even if I find it hard to understand why anyone would use any other "legionary" unit rather than true Romans!

[Citizen Q]

If you dont think they should have them then fine, but the fact remains that EVERY Hellenic faction has them. That's not the point I'm arguing here (though I don't agree with you). I'm simply trying to get something fixed that is obviously a mistake.

[Kassandros]

If you dont think they should have them then fine, but the fact remains that EVERY Hellenic faction has them. That's not the point I'm arguing here (though I don't agree with you). I'm simply trying to get something fixed that is obviously a mistake.

You don't know that it's a mistake. Frankly, they should all be removed. I mostly play Athens and I don't think I ever use anything but hoplites and the occasional army of phalangites. It's pretty ahistorical, especially if Rome isn't exactly conquering everything in the game (which, if you aren't playing Rome, they probably aren't xD)

[Citizen Q]

You don't know that it's a mistake. Frankly, they should all be removed. I mostly play Athens and I don't think I ever use anything but hoplites and the occasional army of phalangites. It's pretty ahistorical, especially if Rome isn't exactly conquering everything in the game (which, if you aren't playing Rome, they probably aren't xD)

Except that it's pretty blatantly obvious when you look at the unit stats that the parts that don't match up were directly copy-pasted from the lower tier unit. And also, except that Rome usually does conquer large amounts of territory regardless of them being player controlled.





Like I said, I was trying to report what seems to be a pretty obvious mistake. There is the proof. If you can't put that together I don't know what to tell you.

Taking them out for being ahistorical would be dumb. The very idea of a Greek city-state having anywhere near the power of Rome or the ability to expand out of mainland Greece is itself ahistorical, and would be on the same level of silly as the Vanilla 'Society In Decline' unit cap on Spartan hoplites when the player controlled half the map.

I can fix it myself fine. I just wanted to help. Not sure of the reasoning for the dog-pile, but ok....

[Menulo]

I think it was on purpose. They have an "elite" swordsmen unit, but no legionnaires. i think it's because they have allot of elite endgame hoplite units, and even a thorax hoplite unit that is really strong.

you can add them yourself with the PFM though. although mine is broken since 3.5.1..

[Ivan_Moscavich]

No one is dog piling you. However calling it a clear mistake and then telling the mod team members that "you're wrong" is not the best way to get positive responses.

The Spartan roster was overhauled slightly differently than the other greek states already. You can see this with their pike units and lack of sword unit variety even compared to other greek states.

I'd go so far to say it was an intentional decision. For those who want to play "muh Sparta, muh 300", you can use more and better hoplites than other Greeks, the trade off is losing quality sword and pike units.

[Citizen Q]

I like the magic quotation marks. Because obviously, I said that. To a mod team member in fact. And one of them definitely didn't agree with my point.

Already fixed it using PFM for myself, so I don't really care anymore. Like I said it seemed like an error to me that I thought I would point out, but apparently suggesting changes to anything already in the mod is sacrilege and nets this

"muh Sparta, muh 300"

as response.

That would also be in instance of correct quotation.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

You can plainly tell that those quotes were used for emphasis as Menulo put "elite" in the post immediately prior to yours.

Since it is a forum, the /[quote] wrap arounds are usually used for direct quotations, like this;

apparently suggesting changes to anything already in the mod is sacrilege

Funny. I could have sworn we just implemented an off the cuff suggestion by Yukishiro about diplomacy, a suggestion for non shield archery blocking animations in the previews overview thread, as well as a suggestion to have the Circus Maximus build from the horse breeder line rather than the gladiator school line.

Would you like me to find the other half dozen or more cases just on the front page alone?

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Oh, and I just relayed the request to put Carthaginian marine archers on boats for Carthage since they would currently just have slingers and javelinmen as their ranged naval units.

This was a player suggestion in a thread as well.


Now, that could look like an oversight (marine archer unit already existed. All other greek navies have them on boats) but it was actually a conscious design decision on my part as I advised the bulk of the naval roster work.

Consequently, I guess that means anyone who wants to complain about something naval related can blame me.

[Kassandros]

Consequently, I guess that means anyone who wants to complain about something naval related can blame me.

I would like pre-Cimon triremes that only carry 12 hoplites and 4 archers, please.

Thank you.

xD