Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Seljuks of Rum

[KAM 2150]

Those are just sweet shield themed backpacks, on sale at your local Tesco for just 4.99$

[jim501]

Is there any possibility the chichak helmet can be implemented in some turkish faction either the Rums or the emerging Ottomans ?
It is a really cool helmet and would be nice to be available since the mod period covers the era it was used I think.
Anyway, great work as always guys.

[Slytacular]

Give me an example of one dating from the 13th to the 15th century that is not the Sultan Barsbay helmet. I am under the impression the chichak helmet is very 16th century which will be out of date in the game.

[stevehoos]

Give me an example of one dating from the 13th to the 15th century that is not the Sultan Barsbay helmet. I am under the impression the chichak helmet is very 16th century which will be out of date in the game.

Yep, I don't know a lot about this particular thing, but you are right. Had an antique dealer near where I live show me one of these and it is a 16th century Ottoman cavalry helmet.

[Danishmend]

Give me an example of one dating from the 13th to the 15th century that is not the Sultan Barsbay helmet. I am under the impression the chichak helmet is very 16th century which will be out of date in the game.

[Ltd.]

well, definitely nothing to do with the 13th and 14th century, but for the Ottomans / indo- persians / mamluks and some-such we'll still need to add those "turban" helmets like this https://de.pinterest.com/pin/241294492507740812/ for the late eras

They are just too iconic

[jim501]

Hmm, my mistake, the helmet is indeed used in later periods than I thought.
Thanks for the answers guys.

[druzhina345]

The main primary documentary source for Seljuk dress and armour of the 13th century is the Romance of Varqa and Gulshah


Plus large pictures of:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

19: Gulshâh fleeing the palace of Rabî; a rabbit among the feet of the horse; to the right the door and the walls of a palace
20: The contemplation of Gulshâh, the fight between Warqah and Rabî, a rabbit between the feet of Rabî s horse; behind him, a bird; behind Gulshâh three birds at various positions
22: Gulshâh uncovers her face; facing Rabî on the horse, behind him Warqah, half naked and bound.
23: Gulshâh kills Rabî by driving the lance in his chest; four horsemen and Warqah bound; inscription: 'Gulshâh kills Ibn Adnân, saves Warqah'
37: The exit of the armed Warqah from the walls of Yemen, flanked by two riders.
38: Warqah to battle; with him, a standard-bearer, behind him, two figures on camels beating large drums; in front of him, two riders and foot-soldier; inscription: 'The army of Warqah scatters that of Bahrain and of Adan.'
39: Struggle of Warqah with a warrior of Adan.

A page of small coloured Varka ve Gulsah images from the Turkish Cultural Foundation

Druzhina345
Seljuk Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[druzhina345]

Other Information about Seljuks:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Saljuq Clothing by Elsie H. Peck
Seljuk Soldiers on a Bas Relief
Seljuk Cavalry on a Bas Relief
Horseman of Raqqa (Faris al-Raqqa)
Seljuk horsemen on a Minai Ware Bowl, 13th century
Seljuk Bowl with Astronomical and Royal Figures, C12-13
Bowl with Paired Riders, C12-13
Seljuq Horseman on a Bowl, 12-13C
Elephant on a Seljuq Bowl, Kashan, 1218
Saljuq Bowl, Kashan, C12-13
Seljuk Horsemen on a Minai Ware Jug, 12-13C
Horseman & Castle on a Kashan Minai Bowl, 12-13C
Seljuk Lampas Robe
Another Seljuk Lampas Robe
Seljuk Horsemen on a Minai Bowl, Kashan, c1200
Saljuq Turkish Elite Cavalry on a Glazed Tile
Two Seljuk Painted Bowls, 13-14C
Seljuk Horsemen on a Wall Painting
Seljuk Stucco Figures
Minai bowl showing Bahram Gur and Azade on a camel
The Seljuqs of Rum by Steven Lowe and Martin Baker
Seljuk Bowl with Rider, 13th century
Seljuk Footed Bowl, c1200
12th Century Glass Medallion
Kitab al-Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by Pseudo-Gallen, 1198CE
Kitab al-Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by Pseudo-Gallen, mid 13th century
Book of Fixed Stars by al Sufi: Ms Sotheby's - Lot 34, 1125, Ms Fatih 3422, 1125, Ms Ahmet III 3493, 1130-31, Ms Ross.1033, 1224, Ms Ayasofya 2595, 1249-50, Ms Or.5323, c1270 & Ms Dar al-Kutub miqat 390, 1224.
Kitab al-Aghani (Book of Songs)
Seljuk Battle plate, Kashan, early 13th century
Saljuq Dish with horseman, late 12th to early 13th century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl, 12th-13 century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl with a ruler and attendants, 12th-13 century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl with a ruler and attendants, 12th-13 century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl with mounted archer, 12th-13 century
Seljuk beaker, Kashan, Iran, late 12th century
Seljuk beaker, late 12th century
Seljuk Candlestick, Anatolia, mid 13th century
Seljuk bowl fragment, late 12th-early 13th century
Saljuq star with Rustam and the Dragon, late 12th century
Ceramics showing Saljuq Costume
A 13th century Kelile ve Dimne
Seljuk Bowl with Rider, 12th to 13th century
Seljuk horseman wearing fur lined hat
Automaton in Saljuq Costume, 1206
Minai plate by Abu Zaid al-Kashani, 1187AD
Horseman on Seljuk Bowl from Rayy, 12th to 13th centuries
Seljuq Steel Mirror with Mounted Hunter
Plaster Relief of Seljuq Cavalry Fighting a Dragon
Seljuq Bowl with Horseman, 12th to 13th centuries
Seljuq Bowl with Turkish horseman, 12th-13th centuries
An Arabic Translation of the Materia Medica of Dioscorides by 'Abdullah ibn al-Fadl
Machine Pouring Wine, after al-Jazari, c. 1315AD
Seljuk Bowl with Turkish Couple, c. 1200AD
Scylitzes Chronicle, f234v A Battle Between Byzantines and Seljuks.
A Seljuk Hoard from Persia by Basil Gray
A Turkic Horse Archer on the Surb Khach Church
Plaster Relief of Seljuq Cavalry Fighting a Dragon, Anatolia, 13th-14th centuries
A Shahnama scene 'The Iranians leave Farud's castle', on a tile, Iran, 12th-13th centuries
Faridun and Kawad, Seljuk Bowl, Incribed "Wealth", early 13th Century
King with attendants, Seljuk Bowl, late 12th early 13th centuries AD
12th century Saljuq Mirror with horse-backed hunter
Seljuk Horseman from Kitab Mukhtar al-Hikam by Al-Mubashir, 13th Century
Layla finds Majnun in the wilderness, Seljuq Bowl, Kashan, c.1220
Seljuk Lustre Dish with Polo Player, 1170-1200, Cleveland Museum of Art
Bowl with a Rider on Horseback accompanied by a Hound and Two Birds, Seljuk, late 12th-early 13th century, Iran

Drawings of & notes by Ian Heath - based on the above:
Turkish cavalry
Seljuk Heavy Cavalryman
Seljuk Infantrymen
Rumi Firenk Heavy Cavalryman
Saracen Standards

Druzhina345
Illustrations of Costume and Soldiers

[OutsiderKK]

Other Information about Seljuks:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Saljuq Clothing by Elsie H. Peck
Seljuk Soldiers on a Bas Relief
Seljuk Cavalry on a Bas Relief
Horseman of Raqqa (Faris al-Raqqa)
Seljuk horsemen on a Minai Ware Bowl, 13th century
Seljuk Bowl with Astronomical and Royal Figures, C12-13
Bowl with Paired Riders, C12-13
Seljuq Horseman on a Bowl, 12-13C
Elephant on a Seljuq Bowl, Kashan, 1218
Saljuq Bowl, Kashan, C12-13
Seljuk Horsemen on a Minai Ware Jug, 12-13C
Horseman & Castle on a Kashan Minai Bowl, 12-13C
Seljuk Lampas Robe
Another Seljuk Lampas Robe
Seljuk Horsemen on a Minai Bowl, Kashan, c1200
Saljuq Turkish Elite Cavalry on a Glazed Tile
Two Seljuk Painted Bowls, 13-14C
Seljuk Horsemen on a Wall Painting
Seljuk Stucco Figures
Minai bowl showing Bahram Gur and Azade on a camel
The Seljuqs of Rum by Steven Lowe and Martin Baker
Seljuk Bowl with Rider, 13th century
Seljuk Footed Bowl, c1200
12th Century Glass Medallion
Kitab al-Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by Pseudo-Gallen, 1198CE
Kitab al-Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by Pseudo-Gallen, mid 13th century
Book of Fixed Stars by al Sufi: Ms Sotheby's - Lot 34, 1125, Ms Fatih 3422, 1125, Ms Ahmet III 3493, 1130-31, Ms Ross.1033, 1224, Ms Ayasofya 2595, 1249-50, Ms Or.5323, c1270 & Ms Dar al-Kutub miqat 390, 1224.
Kitab al-Aghani (Book of Songs)
Seljuk Battle plate, Kashan, early 13th century
Saljuq Dish with horseman, late 12th to early 13th century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl, 12th-13 century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl with a ruler and attendants, 12th-13 century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl with a ruler and attendants, 12th-13 century
Seljuk Mina'i Bowl with mounted archer, 12th-13 century
Seljuk beaker, Kashan, Iran, late 12th century
Seljuk beaker, late 12th century
Seljuk Candlestick, Anatolia, mid 13th century
Seljuk bowl fragment, late 12th-early 13th century
Saljuq star with Rustam and the Dragon, late 12th century
Ceramics showing Saljuq Costume
A 13th century Kelile ve Dimne
Seljuk Bowl with Rider, 12th to 13th century
Seljuk horseman wearing fur lined hat
Automaton in Saljuq Costume, 1206
Minai plate by Abu Zaid al-Kashani, 1187AD
Horseman on Seljuk Bowl from Rayy, 12th to 13th centuries
Seljuq Steel Mirror with Mounted Hunter
Plaster Relief of Seljuq Cavalry Fighting a Dragon
Seljuq Bowl with Horseman, 12th to 13th centuries
Seljuq Bowl with Turkish horseman, 12th-13th centuries
An Arabic Translation of the Materia Medica of Dioscorides by 'Abdullah ibn al-Fadl
Machine Pouring Wine, after al-Jazari, c. 1315AD
Seljuk Bowl with Turkish Couple, c. 1200AD
Scylitzes Chronicle, f234v A Battle Between Byzantines and Seljuks.
A Seljuk Hoard from Persia by Basil Gray
A Turkic Horse Archer on the Surb Khach Church
Plaster Relief of Seljuq Cavalry Fighting a Dragon, Anatolia, 13th-14th centuries
A Shahnama scene 'The Iranians leave Farud's castle', on a tile, Iran, 12th-13th centuries
Faridun and Kawad, Seljuk Bowl, Incribed "Wealth", early 13th Century
King with attendants, Seljuk Bowl, late 12th early 13th centuries AD
12th century Saljuq Mirror with horse-backed hunter
Seljuk Horseman from Kitab Mukhtar al-Hikam by Al-Mubashir, 13th Century
Layla finds Majnun in the wilderness, Seljuq Bowl, Kashan, c.1220
Seljuk Lustre Dish with Polo Player, 1170-1200, Cleveland Museum of Art
Bowl with a Rider on Horseback accompanied by a Hound and Two Birds, Seljuk, late 12th-early 13th century, Iran

Drawings of & notes by Ian Heath - based on the above:
Turkish cavalry
Seljuk Heavy Cavalryman
Seljuk Infantrymen
Rumi Firenk Heavy Cavalryman
Saracen Standards

Druzhina345
Illustrations of Costume and Soldiers

It might be better to post these to the research thread.

[druzhina345]

It might be better to post these to the research thread.

Which research thread?


Druzhina345
Illustrations of Costume and Soldiers

[Lucem Mundum]

It might be better to post these to the research thread.

It would be more convenient to post it in the faction's thread.

[OutsiderKK]

This research thread http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...h-Thread/page9

[OutsiderKK]

Nah, I prefer research thread. A better place to post research materials...

[Slytacular]

@Danishmend, not a good enough resource for me. Needs to be a raw original source material.

[Lucem Mundum]

@Danishmend, not a good enough resource for me. Needs to be a raw original source material.

Well there are different types of chichak helmets. The ones depicted in @Danishmend's post are definitely of mid 15th century origins, since they lack both the cheek and neck guard pieces, which are iconic in the later chichak helmets.

here is an example of 15th century chichaks

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

16th century +

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Slytacular]

Ah, I was looking for the peaked brim that is usually iconic with the chickak. The base helmet itself without the additions of the brim, cheek guards, and neck guard will be made.

[Lucem Mundum]

Ah, I was looking for the peaked brim that is usually iconic with the chickak. The base helmet itself without the additions of the brim, cheek guards, and neck guard will be made.

Why not include the brim as it is depicted?

[Slytacular]

Because the only exception in the 15th century featuring a brim was from the Sultan Barsbay helmet. Every illustration from the 15th century Islamic ruled regions featured no brims on the chickak helmets. Every chickak helmet except the Sultan Barsbay helmet are dated individually some where in the mid 16th century.

[Lucem Mundum]

Because the only exception in the 15th century featuring a brim was from the Sultan Barsbay helmet. Every illustration from the 15th century Islamic ruled regions featured no brims on the chickak helmets. Every chickak helmet except the Sultan Barsbay helmet are dated individually some where in the mid 16th century.

I doubt that the sultan was the only one who had a helmet with a brim. Generals and high ranking Sipahis probably wore them too.