Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Seljuks of Rum

[hessam]

Nice stuff there Danishmend. But do you also know when these illustrations were made? That's really important when it comes to source reliability.

[druzhina345]

Nice stuff there Danishmend. But do you also know when these illustrations were made? That's really important when it comes to source reliability.

it is from the Hünername ('Book of Skills') of 1588 by Lokman:
Bayezid I, "The Thunderbolt," Routs the Crusaders at the Battle of Nicopolis, 1396
Siege of Belgrade, 1456, by Sultan Mehmed
Murad II at target shooting with arrows
Suleiman the Magnificent hunting with Foreign Envoys
Siege of Belgrade, 1521
Forces of Suleyman Besieging a Christian Fortress, 1524
Ottoman Cavalry units participating in the Battle of Mohacs, 1526
Suleiman the Magnificent and the Battle of Mohacs, 1526
Siege of Vienna by Suleyman I the Magnificent, 1529
Moldavian Campaign, 1538
Siege of Szigetvár, 1566
so they are portrayed as late 16th century Ottoman soldiers.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Ottoman Costume & Soldiers

[hessam]

Thanks for the links. Slytacular actually found earlier manuscripts (one 1460-80 and another 1498-99) which depict similar headgear for the Ottomans.

http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Ot...-229b-230a.htm
http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Ot...ltan-large.htm

[druzhina345]

Thanks for the links. Slytacular actually found earlier manuscripts (one 1460-80 and another 1498-99) which depict similar headgear for the Ottomans.

http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Ot...-229b-230a.htm
http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Ot...ltan-large.htm

Also from my site:
a battle scene with soldiers portrayed as 15th century Ottomans, in Khusrau and Shirin, 1498–99AD
Detail of soldiers on the frontispiece of a 15th-century Ottoman Sulayman-Name, Chester Beatty Library Ms. 406
These have equipment of a type not seen much in later 16th century Ottoman illustrations.


Druzhina345
15th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[Wallachian]

Wait, is that warfare.altavista your actual site druzhina?

@danishmed. Fantastic information and sources provided. Great pictures too. Do you have any proposals for the make up of non-Ottoman Anatolian beyliks of the XIVth and XVth century like Karamanids, Aydinids, Germyian and the like? What would you replace the Janissaries with? Would you go by the Seljuk army model?

[druzhina345]

Wait, is that warfare.altavista your actual site druzhina?

Yes, warfare.altavista.org is the latest version of my sites.

Druzhina345
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[Danishmend]

@danishmed. Fantastic information and sources provided. Great pictures too. Do you have any proposals for the make up of non-Ottoman Anatolian beyliks of the XIVth and XVth century like Karamanids, Aydinids, Germyian and the like? What would you replace the Janissaries with? Would you go by the Seljuk army model?

Thank you.

In my humble opinion:

* The Ottoman household troops (ie Janissaries) were basically a copy of Seljuks' Ghulam system, though the former was based on Balkans whereas the latter was based mostly on Central Asia. But what if the Ottomans were wiped out by another Turkish beylik, such as Karamanids? My guess is that Karamanids would go by the Seljuk army model, basing their household troops on Ghulam system. So, the best option to replace Janissaries is to bring back Ghulam system.

* Turkoman ghazis comprised the bulk of the early beyliks' armies in the 14th century, before the formation of regular units.

* We have historical records of Sipahis from other Turkish beyliks leaving Bayezid's side and joining Timur's forces at the Battle of Ankara (1402), so Sipahis should be there too.

* Apart from Ottoman household troops, the rest of the roster should be similar to that of Ottomans. Sipahis, Akindjis, Azaps etc.

* There is no recorded difference between the Turkish beyliks of Anatolia in terms of arms & armor. Even the Turkoman states of East Anatolia & Iran had more or less same armors, this plated mail from the 15th century belongs to Akkoyunlu Turkomans for instance.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and 15th century Akkoyunlu turban helmets from Iran - http://www.forensicfashion.com/1467A...lryHelmet.html

[Slytacular]

Hey Druzhina, are you still available to send you my pictures from the Smithsonian museum gallery of art?

I still have tons of images that I could send you. If possible, I could send you the pictures through an attachment on email.

[druzhina345]

Hey Druzhina, are you still available to send you my pictures from the Smithsonian museum gallery of art?

I still have tons of images that I could send you. If possible, I could send you the pictures through an attachment on email.

I've sent you a PM.

Druzhina
See Slytacular's photos at Italian Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[Wallachian]

Thanks for the info danishmend. What about terms the following terms:

- kuls, is a kul the same thing as a ghulam?
- what is the difference between a senior ghulam and a junior ghulam?
- beglik nokeri
- igdish/igdis
- Would askaris also be part of the beylik armies?

To the developers of the mod, are there plans for other anatolian turkish factions that will emerge after the fall of the Seljuks of Rum? Also what is the difference between the Turkish Archers and the Rumi Archer units? In terms of actual historical/ethnic explanation (i can tell that Turkish archers have better armour).

[zsimmortal]

- Would askaris also be part of the beylik armies?

If I can answer this myself...An askar roughly equates to a European 'retinue' (askari is arabic for soldier, in this situation, would be a 'retainer'). From what I've read (this is mostly relating to Saladin), an askar was usually made up of Ghulam or Mamluk cavalrymen for armies of that region. But it could theoretically include other kinds of troops.

[Danishmend]

Thanks for the info danishmend. What about terms the following terms:

- kuls, is a kul the same thing as a ghulam?
- what is the difference between a senior ghulam and a junior ghulam?
- beglik nokeri
- igdish/igdis
- Would askaris also be part of the beylik armies?

• Kul is a Turkish word meaning servant.
Ghulam is an Arabic word meaning meaning servant, boy youth.
Mamluk is an Arabic word meaning property/owned slave.

All of these terms were used to describe household troops by various dynasties and had similar meanings. For example, qapukulu (kapıkulu) means "servants of the porte".

• The difference between a senior ghulam and a junior ghulam is their ranks. Senior ghulams, as expected, were better trained, more experienced, higher ranked and older ghulams.

• The nöker system was adopted by Turks after the Mongol Invasion, the word is of Mongol origin. Beglik Nökers were a Beg's (a Beglik's tribal chief) personal troops, similar to a Sultan's ghulams.

"After the Mongol Empire, the nöker system was taken over by the Turkic states. The nöker concept was not much different than the Nöker of the Mongols. They accompanied their leader in war and peace. Sometimes, they were also tasked as local governors. For example, the founders of the Karesi and Saruhan begliks were initially nökers of Mesut II of the Seljuks of Anatolia.

In the early years of the Ottoman beylik (before independence), Osman I was one of the many ghazis. But, after his successful raids to Byzantine Empire territory, he became a leader, and his fellow ghazis became into his nökers. Initially, his nökers were Turkmen ghazis. But, some Byzantine soldiers converted to Islam and among them some chose to be Osman's nökers as well. Köse Mihal was a well known example.^[1] The nöker system in the Ottoman Empire ended by the 16th century.^[2]"

• Halil İnalcık: Kuruluş Dönemi Osmanlı Sultanları, ISBN 978605-5586-06-5, pp 22-23
• ^ Jump up to:^{a b} Zerrin Günal: Islam Ansiklopedisi:Vol 33, p.216

• As for "Igdish"; the Seljuk conquest of Roman (Byzantine) cities in Anatolia gave rise to a new mixed generation (children of Turkish fathers and Greek mothers) in those cities, the Eastern Romans called them "mixovarvaroi" meaning "mixed barbarians", and the Turks called them "igdish".

"A third element of the army was more varied and, in the 12th century, of lesser importance. This included igdish forces recruited from the offspring of mixed Turkish and Christian marriages who, under their igdishbashi, often acted as a kind of police force in the major towns."

Davic Nicolle, Saladin and the Saracens.

• As far as I know "askar" was a general term which included many kinds of regular troops, the word is still used today and means "soldier".

To the developers of the mod, are there plans for other anatolian turkish factions that will emerge after the fall of the Seljuks of Rum? Also what is the difference between the Turkish Archers and the Rumi Archer units? In terms of actual historical/ethnic explanation (i can tell that Turkish archers have better armour).

I'm not a developer but my guess is that "Rumi" represents Anatolian troops of mixed origins, the Seljuk Turks referred to Anatolia as "Rum", meaning Rome/Roman land. And "Rumi" means Anatolian, though it has no ethnical/racial meaning. For example, Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad (aka Rumi) was born to Persian-speaking parents (known as Tajiks in Afghanistan) in present day Afghanistan. He migrated to Anatolia and lived most of his life there, he became known as "Jalal ad-Din Rumi" meaning Jalal ad-Din of Rum (of Rome/Anatolia). So Rumi means anyone from Anatolia, regardless of his/her ethnic origin.

"Rumi" should not be confused with the ethnic term "Rum", which was used by Seljuks to refer to Eastern Romans.

[Visarion]

• Kul is a Turkish word meaning servant.
Ghulam is an Arabic word meaning meaning servant, boy youth.
Mamluk is an Arabic word meaning property/owned slave.

All of these terms were used to describe household troops by various dynasties and had similar meanings. For example, qapukulu (kapıkulu) means "servants of the porte".

• The difference between a senior ghulam and a junior ghulam is their ranks. Senior ghulams, as expected, were better trained, more experienced, higher ranked and older ghulams.

• The nöker system was adopted by Turks after the Mongol Invasion, the word is of Mongol origin. Beglik Nökers were a Beg's (a Beglik's tribal chief) personal troops, similar to a Sultan's ghulams.

"After the Mongol Empire, the nöker system was taken over by the Turkic states. The nöker concept was not much different than the Nöker of the Mongols. They accompanied their leader in war and peace. Sometimes, they were also tasked as local governors. For example, the founders of the Karesi and Saruhan begliks were initially nökers of Mesut II of the Seljuks of Anatolia.

In the early years of the Ottoman beylik (before independence), Osman I was one of the many ghazis. But, after his successful raids to Byzantine Empire territory, he became a leader, and his fellow ghazis became into his nökers. Initially, his nökers were Turkmen ghazis. But, some Byzantine soldiers converted to Islam and among them some chose to be Osman's nökers as well. Köse Mihal was a well known example.^[1] The nöker system in the Ottoman Empire ended by the 16th century.^[2]"

• Halil İnalcık: Kuruluş Dönemi Osmanlı Sultanları, ISBN 978605-5586-06-5, pp 22-23
• ^ Jump up to:^{a b} Zerrin Günal: Islam Ansiklopedisi:Vol 33, p.216

• As for "Igdish"; the Seljuk conquest of Roman (Byzantine) cities in Anatolia gave rise to a new mixed generation (children of Turkish fathers and Greek mothers) in those cities, the Eastern Romans called them "mixovarvaroi" meaning "mixed barbarians", and the Turks called them "igdish".

"A third element of the army was more varied and, in the 12th century, of lesser importance. This included igdish forces recruited from the offspring of mixed Turkish and Christian marriages who, under their igdishbashi, often acted as a kind of police force in the major towns."

Davic Nicolle, Saladin and the Saracens.

• As far as I know "askar" was a general term which included many kinds of troops, the word is still used today and means "soldier".




I'm not a developer but my guess is that "Rumi" represents Anatolian troops of mixed origins, the Seljuk Turks referred to Anatolia as "Rum", meaning Rome/Roman land. And "Rumi" means Anatolian, though it has no ethnical/racial meaning. For example, Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad (aka Rumi) was born to Persian-speaking parents (known as Tajiks in Afghanistan) in present day Afghanistan. He migrated to Anatolia and lived most of his life there, he became known as "Jalal ad-Din Rumi" meaning Jalal ad-Din of Rum (of Rome/Anatolia). So Rumi means anyone from Anatolia, regardless of his/her ethnic origin.

"Rumi" should not be confused with the ethnic term "Rum", which was used by Seljuks to refer to Eastern Romans.

Good info

[druzhina345]

• As far as I know "askar" was a general term which included many kinds of regular troops, the word is still used today and means "soldier".

Lashkar is a Persian word meaning army or camp. The Portuguese called their native soldiers laskars and the British adopted it from them for native seamen. The Germans and other called African native soldiers Askaris in the 19th-20th centuries.

A present day organisation is Lashkar-e-Taiba which means Army of the Good.

Druzhina345
19th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[Danishmend]

Lashkar is a Persian word meaning army or camp.

Askar (asker) means "soldier" in Turkish, though it is a loanword and may have a different meaning originally.

[Sarcasm_pt]

Lashkar is a Persian word meaning army or camp. The Portuguese called their native soldiers laskars and the British adopted it from them for native seamen. The Germans and other called African native soldiers Askaris in the 19th-20th centuries.

A present day organisation is Lashkar-e-Taiba which means Army of the Good.

Druzhina345
19th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Lascarins (sg. Lascarim) actually. And mostly applied to native soldiers from Ceylon, and occasionally eastward.

Lascar were considered only those that were embarked, and not necessarily soldiers.

[Danishmend]

By the way, I think Anatolian Spearmen can be renamed as "Rumi Spearmen" since both words have the same meaning. Using both "Anatolian" and "Rumi" terms in the roster is pointless.

[nnnm]

No Askar is Arabic (عسكر)


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[druzhina345]

No Askar is Arabic (عسكر)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You mean Askar is also Arabic (عسكر), it is in many languages.


Druzhina345
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[Levan]

Georgians also adopted word Lashkar which means army. I agree with druzhina but why you think that Lashkar and Ascar are the same?