Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Seljuks of Rum

[Visarion]

Great idea!

Bazaraads

[Visarion]

Great idea!

[Nebaki]

After the dissolution of the Seljuq state they left some Turkish principalities which are - if not all - are represented as emergent:

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It´s not perfect but there is even a Mod for MTW2 Kingdoms called "Anatolian Principalities" - why not take some Units from them to the Seljuk Rooster ?

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?584574-A-P-Preview-Maritime-Principalities

One Example is that Seljuks of Rum has no Heavy Infantry so maybe just give them something like this:

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Saruhan Swordsmen

The Ottomans just overthrown all other Principalities and absorbed them all


Or another Option like recrating Great Seljuk Empire when Seljuks of Rum, Zengids or Khwarazmian Empire get some old Regions back maybe ?

[zsimmortal]

One Example is that Seljuks of Rum has no Heavy Infantry so maybe just give them something like this:

I can't speak for the person working on Rum, but not every faction will have every type of unit. I know I'm making mine with defined strengths and weaknesses. Rum is going to get some attention very soon, so you'll get an idea on what's coming in a short period.

Or another Option like recrating Great Seljuk Empire when Seljuks of Rum, Zengids or Khwarazmian Empire get some old Regions back maybe ?

I don't really see why the Zengids and Khwarazmids would want to be the Great Seljuk Empire. They all had their own personal ambitions. I have some ideas in store for Khwarazm if/when factional events come up to the table, but nothing relating to the Seljuks.

[Nebaki]

@zsimmortal there is no thanks button but anyway

In this Threadhistory :http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...S-Last-Preview i found this but can´t say what is really to rely on:

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They mentioned as "Zülüflü Baltacılar" which was the Ottoman Tabardar https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%B...altac%C4%B1lar

If you just switch the language on Wiki you will get this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltadji which makes Sense in way.

But as i mentioned and all of you know that there is lack in research about Seljuks or Ottoman Units or some various Armament that is not allowed to be published.

[druzhina345]

By the 19th century, and perhaps much earlier, a Zülüflü Baltacı (Zuluflu Baltadji) was a White Eunuch in the Service of the Harem (by Jean Brindesi)

Druzhina345
Illustrations of Ottoman Costume & Soldiers

[Danishmend]

By the way, Seljuk Sultanate of Rum has probably the weakest roster in early period. I know that some factions are more cavalry-based whereas others have more balanced rosters and it makes sense historically but compared to their neighbouring factions Sultanate of Rum (early period) seems to be really underpowered. Especially compared to Eastern Roman factions

- Their infantry units suck, I can understand this since Seljuk military was mostly based on cavalry (similar to ancient Parthians)
- Eastern Roman and Georgian factions have better foot archers and not even the 'elite' ghulam foot guard can match their heavy archers
- Lack of elite/powerful shock cavalry
- Sultanate of Rum has a good variety of horse archers but Eastern Romans have Cuman and Turkoman units and they are more or less equal to Rum's horse archer units

In other words Seljuks of Rum (early) are probably the weakest faction in the mod and have no military advantage over Eastern Romans and other neighbouring factions, the mod is still better balanced than Medieval II Total War vanilla though, Byzantines had better horse archer units than the Turks in MTWII.

[zsimmortal]

By the way, Seljuk Sultanate of Rum has probably the weakest roster in early period. I know that some factions are more cavalry-based whereas others have more balanced rosters and it makes sense historically but compared to their neighbouring factions Sultanate of Rum (early period) seems to be really underpowered. Especially compared to Eastern Roman factions

- Their infantry units suck, I can understand this since Seljuk military was mostly based on cavalry (similar to ancient Parthians)
- Eastern Roman and Georgian factions have better foot archers and not even the 'elite' ghulam foot guard can match their heavy archers
- Lack of elite/powerful shock cavalry
- Sultanate of Rum has a good variety of horse archers but Eastern Romans have Cuman and Turkoman units and they are more or less equal to Rum's horse archer units

In other words Seljuks of Rum (early) are probably the weakest faction in the mod and have no military advantage over Eastern Romans and other neighbouring factions.

They are going to be worked on and will be balanced, don't worry about it.

[warman222]

So this is the 2nd time I've had to delete a bunch of posts because of it devolving into a flame war. Some I deleted because I don't want them to be the starting point to resume the arguing. (Cause people don't just listen to us right?)

I'm also gonna single out Nebaki because honestly I'm pretty sure you've been the poster to start the spiral both times. If you can't post and argue like an adult, do not post in our sub-forum. I don't care how right you think you are.

[Nebaki]

I'm also gonna single out Nebaki because honestly I'm pretty sure you've been the poster to start the spiral both times. If you can't post and argue like an adult, do not post in our sub-forum. I don't care how right you think you are.

You deleted my post which was at the first time not agressive only some facts, i already say there that im not offending someone, only because some one called "Dogukan" starts a flame war again - your moderation was just against me and even yesterday you looked on this Thread and everything was fine Now posts are gone which used the same Source as "Wallachian" but i see what is gonna happened here...

[Danishmend]

Two more Ottomans

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[Danishmend]

Tier 2 & Tier 3 unit suggestions for Sultanate of Rum. Note that this is merely a suggestion.


TURKOMAN TRIBAL GHAZI (TIER 2)
Early Ottoman (and other post-Ilkhanate Turkish principalities of Anatolia) armies were entirely composed of these tribal ghazi cavalry.

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FIEF-HOLDING (TIMARLI) PROVINCIAL SIPAHIS OF ANATOLIA & RUMELIA (TIER 2 & TIER 3)

Quoted from Wikipedia:

• The sipahi were traditionally recruited among Turkic landowners, and thus, the non-Turkic provinces such as Arabia and Maghreb did not have sipahi. Recruitment of non-Turkic sipahi was banned with a 1635 ferman (decree).

• The term refers to all freeborn Ottoman Turkish mounted troops other than akıncı and tribal horsemen in the Ottoman army. The sipahis formed two distinct types of cavalry: feudal-like, provincial timarlı sipahi (timariots) which consisted most of the Ottoman army, and salaried, regular kapıkulu sipahi (sipahi of the Porte), which constituted the cavalry part of the Ottoman household troops.

• If a battle was to be fought in Europe, Rumeli Sipahis took the honorary right flank under the Rumeli beylerbey, while the Anatolian beylerbey and his Sipahis took the left flank; when a battle was in Asia, positions were switched. This way, the Ottoman classical army's flanks wholly consisted of Timariot cavalry, while the center consisted of Janissary infantry and artillery divisions.

• The equipment and tactics differed between the Anatolian and Balkan Timarli Sipahi. The Anatolian Sipahi were equipped and fought as classic horse archers, shooting while galloping, yet they weren't nomadic cavalry and their status was similar to medium cavalry class. Balkan Timarli Sipahis wore chainmail, rode barded horses and carried lances and javelins.

• Timarli Sipahis of the classical Ottoman period usually comprised the bulk of the army and did the majority of the fighting on the battlefield. While infantry troops at the army's center maintained a static battle line, the cavalry flanks constituted its mobile striking arm. During battle, Timarli Sipahi tactics were used, opening the conflict with skirmishes and localized skirmishes with enemy cavalry. Regiments of Timarli Sipahis made charges against weaker or isolated units and retreated back to the main body of troops whenever confronted with heavy cavalry. During one regiment's retreat, other regiments of sipahis may have charged the chasing enemy's flanks. Such tactics served to draw enemy cavalry away from infantry support, break their cohesion, and isolate and overwhelm them with numerical superiority. Anatolian Sipahis had the ability to harass and provoke opposing troops with arrow shots. More heavily equipped Balkan Sipahis carried javelins for protection against enemy horsemen during their tactical retreats. All cavalry flanks of the Ottoman army fought a fluid, mounted type of warfare around the center of the army, which served as a stable pivot.

• The standard equipment of Rumeli Sipahis of the classical Ottoman period consisted of a round shield, lance, kilij, javelins and plated chainmail. Their horses were barded. Standard equipment of Anatolian Sipahis in the same era was a round shield, composite Turkish bow, arrows, kilij (Turkish sword) and leather or felt armor. Besides these, Sipahis of both provinces were equipped with bozdogan and şeşper maces, and aydogan, teber and sagir axes. Anatolian Sipahis sometimes also carried lances.

• Whereas the Sipahis (both Tımarlı and Kapıkulu) were almost exclusively chosen amongst ethnic Turkic landowners, they made great strides of efforts to gain respect within the Ottoman Empire and their political reputation depended on the mistakes of the Janissary. That minor quarrels erupted between the two units is made evident with a Turkmen adage, still used today within Turkey, "Atlı er başkaldırmaz", which, referring to the unruly Janissaries, translates into "Horsemen don't mutiny".




So, Sipahis of Anatolia were medium horse archers whereas Sipahis of Rumelia were heavier equipped lancers. I think there can be two units based on Provincial (Tımarlı) Sipahis:

Sipahi Lancers: Shock cavalry/lancers, based on Sipahis of Rumelia

Sipahi Horse Archers: Medium horse archers, based on Sipahis of Anatolia

I think we should be able to upgrade tier2-sipahis to tier 3. Their helmets can be replaced with chicak helmets at tier 3.

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QAPUKULU CAVALRY (SIPAHI OF THE PORTE - TIER 2 & TIER 3)

Quoted from Wikipedia:

• Qapukulu Sipahis (Sipahis of the Porte) were household cavalry troops of the Ottoman Palace. They were the cavalry equivalent of the Janissary household infantry force.

• Silahtars ("weapon masters") were chosen from the best warriors in the Ottoman Empire. Any Ottoman soldier who committed a significant deed on the battlefield could be promoted to the Silahtar division, although normally members of other mounted units, like Timarli Sipahis or one of the other less prestigious of the four divisions of Kapikulu Sipahis, were promoted this way.

• Equipment of Silahtar, Sipahi and Ulufeci divisions was plated mail, chainmail, round shield, sword, composite bow, arrows, lance, bozdogan mace and axe. Their equipment was similar to Rumeli (Balkan) provincial Timarli Sipahis, though they wore brilliant fabrics, prominent hats and bore ornamented polearms.

• In the classical period Ottoman battle formation, Kapikulu Sipahis were positioned back of the army as rearguards. They acted as reserve cavalry and bodyguards of Ottoman sultan and vezirs. Their job included to join and reinforce Ottoman army's flanks which otherwise consisted entirely provincial timariot sipahis.

• The Sipahis of the Porte (Qapukulu Sipahis) were originally founded during the reign of Murad I. Although the Sipahis of the Porte were originally recruited, like the Janissaries, using the devşirme system,^[3] by the time of Sultan Mehmed II, they were chosen from the Turkic land-owners within the Empire.


Again there can be 2 units based on Qapukulu:

Qapukulu Sipahis: Very heavy shock cavalry

Silahtar Bodyguard: tier 2/tier 3 bodyguards

I think we should be able to upgrade tier2-qapukulu and silahtar bodyguard to tier 3. Their helmets and plated mail can be replaced with chicak helmets and Ottoman krug armor at tier 3.

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AKINJI (TIER 2 & TIER 3)

Literally "raiders".
Quoted from Wikipedia
• In battle their main role was to act as advance troops on the front lines and demoralise the marching opposing army by using guerrilla tactics, and to put them in a state of confusion and shock.^[1] They could be likened to a scythe in a wheat field. They would basically hit the enemy with arrows. When attacked in melee, they would retreat while still shooting backwards. They could easily outrun heavy cavalry because they were lightly armed and their horses were bred for speed as opposed to strength. Akinji forces carried swords, lances, shields and battle axes as well, so that in a field of combat, they could face the enemy first and fight melee. In some Ottoman campaigns, such as the Battle of Krbava field, Akinji forces were the only units utilized without any need for Ottoman heavy cavalry or infantry.
• Akinji forces were led by certain families. Well-known akinji families were Malkoçoğlu, Turhanlı, Ömerli, Evrenosoğlu, and Mihalli. These akinji clans were mainly composed of Turkmen tribal warriors with a leading dynasty which descended from the warrior ghazis of the first Ottoman ruler Osman I. Adventurers, soldiers of fortune, mercenaries, warrior dervishes, and civilians looking for fortune and adventure would also join the ranks of akinji gangs.

Akınjıs are basically a light horse archer unit.

Akinjis from Suleimanname

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(right)


(left)

JANISSARIES (TIER 2 & TIER 3)

Household infantry. The illustrations give a general idea of their dress; in contemporary Persian-style paintings they are shown in varied colours including black, blue, red and purple, but 16th Century Europeans were struck by the uniformity of their dress - 'The Make and Colour of their clothes were almost the same, so that you would judge them all to be Servants of one Man'- and the uniform issued appears to have been of coarse blue cloth, though some of the Segmens, like the 33rd Orta, the Avcus (huntsmen), may possibly have worn green. Over a short plain tunic, sometimes worn on its own, they had a short sleeved caftan of near ankle length; its front corners were normally hitched up and tucked into the striped sash, which ended in a gold or silver fringe; beneath were blue trousers and yellow stockings. The characteristic sleeve-cap or 'zarcola' was of white felt with the band and frontal of silver or gilt; senior soldiers or members of picked 'forlorn-hope' groups such as 'Serden-gecti' (head-riskers) or 'Dal kilic' (bare swords) were distinguished by semi-precious stones in the nasal and long heron or bird-of-paradise plume. Apart from the powder horn shown a pouch usually hung from the sash. Except for officers the uniform was notably plain, neither slashed nor decorated.

Note that janissary clothing changed little between 15th and 18th centuries. Robe - tunic + Ak Börk (white hat) was their main appearance for centuries. There can be 4 units based on Janissary corps

Janissary Archers (Tier 2)

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Solak Guard Archers (Tier 2)

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Mehmed II the conqueror with his solak guards

Janissary Gunners (Tier 3)

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Janissary Zırhlı Nefer (Heavy Infantry - Tier 2)

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from tsardoms total war

OTHER INFANTRY

Heavy Assault Infantry (Tier 2)
Troops fit for siege battles, they wear the heaviest Ottoman armor of the age (plated mail) and carry iron shields.

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Azaps (tier 2)
'Azabs' (bachelors) seem to have been more like the irregular cavalry, volunteers serving for loot, and to have been employed during most of the period. Such troops would be irregulars in basically civilian dress, and their chief weapon was the composite bow, though spears, javelins, swords and shields were also used, and toward the end of the 16th Century irregulars would appear to have carried firearms. Azaps can be a light archer unit and replace tier-1 Rumi archers?

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Heavy Archers (tier 2)
This unit can replace tier-1 Turkish archers. Basically armored archers.

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ARMY COMPOSITION (field battles)
Early Ottoman armies were almost totally composed of cavalry (tribal Turkoman ghazi), and Ottoman Classical Army had more cavalry than infantry, the following (modern) estimate for the Turkish army at Mohacs (1529) gives a fairly typical make-up:
Infantry - 2,000 Janissaries, 5,000 local levies
Cavalry - 7,000 Sipahis of the Porte (Qapukulu), 10,000 Tımarlı Sipahis from Asia Minor, 15,000 Tımarlı Sipahis from Rumelia, and up to 20,000 Akinjis.

Ottoman Classical Army's battle formation






Turkish Kilij (saber) - there were many types of Kilij, the shorter and more curved ones were known as "pala" for instance.

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Kilij

Pala

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[zsimmortal]

I'd also add Yaya units. Also for at least T3, some polearm unit or units, as the Ottomans had some pretty awesome berdiche weapons.

Danishmend or other people with access to Turkish source, is there any way to find some reinforced kalkans before the 16th century? That'd be a pretty cool shield to have.

BTW, the krug armour on the Sipahi is 16th century until proven otherwise. I've actually tried really hard to find some earlier examples and there is no such thing as far as I can tell.

[Danishmend]

Danishmend or other people with access to Turkish source, is there any way to find some reinforced kalkans before the 16th century? That'd be a pretty cool shield to have.

By "reinforced kalkan" do you mean wing-like trapezoid shields? They began to appear in Ottoman ranks in the second half of the 15th century as far as I know. I'll try to find a source.

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[zsimmortal]

By "reinforced kalkan" do you mean wing-like trapezoid shields? They began to appear in Ottoman ranks in the second half of the 15th century as far as I know. I'll try to find a source.

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Kalkans are wicker shields, which were very popular for Eastern cavalrymen, including the Ottomans. But some reinforced them with metal frames. I haven't found an example that pre-dates the 16th century though. Here's what I mean :

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[Nebaki]

I have a question about the Musketeers in these Pictures ? are those real or just fantasy ? They are wearing some kind of Armor.

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BTW: It´s funny that "Danishmend" is repeating all the the things that i already posted in this Thread and also in the one from Tsardoms but he got no resistance to show some proofs to make it legit - this more then confusing - i think this Mod gives importance about to be "historically accurate"

[Danishmend]

BTW: It´s funny that "Danishmend" is repeating all the the things that i already posted in this Thread and also in the one from Tsardoms but he got no resistance to show some proofs to make it legit - this more then confusing - i think this Mod gives importance about to be "historically accurate"

edit: Whatever.

I have a question about the Musketeers in these Pictures ? are those real or just fantasy ? They are wearing some kind of Armor.

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All of these paintings belong to Fausto Zonaro, an 19th/20th century Italian painter. Most of the stuff you see there is fantasy, especially Sultan Mehmed's (and other soldiers') full plate armor. Some janissaries had mail armor beneath their robes but I've never seen any miniature that depicts a janissary wearing lamellar armor or similar metal plates over his tunics/robes, but there might be some examples.

[Visarion]

With all respect you guys should not start a fight here... you could be banned... why not simply use arguments instead of arguing...

[Slytacular]

Thanks Danishmend! If you can find 14th to 15th century examples we can look at, that would be cool. 16th century is out of the timeframe and we desperately try to stay away from anything dated past 1500. The only thing that sucks is that a lot of people mix up 16th and 15th century Ottoman stuff and call it a day.

[Danishmend]

Thanks Danishmend! If you can find 14th to 15th century examples we can look at, that would be cool. 16th century is out of the timeframe and we desperately try to stay away from anything dated past 1500. The only thing that sucks is that a lot of people mix up 16th and 15th century Ottoman stuff and call it a day.

14th century examples are hard to find, but most of the images in my post are 15th century stuff, except for a few soldiers wearing krug armor and akinjis from Suleimanname.

• Both Timarlı and Qapukulu Sipahi armors (mainly plated mail and pre-chichak helmets) in my posts are from 14th-15th centuries, some of these 15th century illustration inaccurately(?) depict soldiers with krug armor though (the one that depicts the Siege of Constantinople for instance), they can be ignored. Early forms of chichaks can be seen in 15th century Mamluk and Ottoman armies and they are not out of the timeframe IMO.

• Akinji miniatures are from Suleimanname (early 16th century, Suleiman the Magnificent's era), I couldn't find 15th century akinji depictions unfortunately.

• Assault infanty depictions are based on 15th century armor (Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York)

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• Armored Archer's equipment (most likely from the 15th century) doesn't look out of the timeframe (turban helmet & plated mail)

• Kilij sabers reached its classic form in the 15th century

• Azabs didn't have uniforms or armor, they wore their civilian kaftans.

As for janissaries, most of them are from 15th century too, besides their uniforms didn't change much until the 18th century.

• Janissary Archers are from 15th century (all of them are based on Bellini's drawing - 1480)

• Solak Guards images are from 15th & 16th centuries, the first miniature depicts Mehmed II with his solak guards - 15th century. Second image from the bottom is from "Panorama 1453" museum.

• Gun-wielding janissaries are from early 16th century (Siege of Rhodes). Here is another miniature depicting janissary gunners (Siege of Belgrade - 1456), "janissary musketeers" for 15th century is probably a wrong term though, they are probably arquebus or handguns.

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• Janissary Zırhlı Nefer's museum armor is from 15th century (Istanbul Military Museum)